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The Dane
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 07:13 pm |
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NClib wrote: Wow, man-made, organized religion doesn't seem like a good thing, does it? If it's individual I see no trouble..... But if a leader gathers members and gets them to act on his word.... then shi* will come down.....
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Horseface
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 07:16 pm |
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The Dane wrote: NClib wrote: Wow, man-made, organized religion doesn't seem like a good thing, does it? If it's individual I see no trouble..... But if a leader gathers members and gets them to act on his word.... then s*** will come down..... Wow, man-made, organized government doesn't seem like a good thing, does it?
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jailkerry
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 07:25 pm |
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ZZPAT.....
You are a perfect example of someone with a tiny bit of scriptural knowledge that can quote scripture to your own ends, no matter it's original context. No tto mention you are so historically inaccurate that it is hilarious.
Want some examples? How about this gem?
The concept of same sex love didn't exist until the 1800's. So, obviously even the word "homosexual" can't be in a bible that was written two thousand years ago.
Are you really so uniformed as to think this? It may not have had a name until the 1800's (hence the "love that dare not utter its name"), but it has been around far longer. The sins of Soddom and Gammorrah DID include homosexuality, along with rape. The OT (which was written around 4000 years ago)did have proscriptions against homosexuality, which were further reinforced in the NT by Paul and ther writers. I can go on if you wish...complete with references and quotes.
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jailkerry
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 07:30 pm |
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euthy wrote: Your very wrong indeed. The fundament of our society and the fundament of christianity is built on homosexuality. The fundament of your society...maybe. Christianity...absolutely not! Plato, the fathers of cristianity himself would often have sex with men. Plato had nothing to do with Christianity! He was a deist, worshipping the many Greek gods. The same goes for his teacher Sokrates and his student Aristoteles, the founder of modern science and still the root from which much of our modern thinking comes from. Why the christiants adobted so much from anciant Greecem but not homosexuality is actually an interesting question. What exactly did Christianity, with it's tenets of monotheism and acceptance of the salvation offered by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ adopt from Aristotle, Socrates and Plato? Or from the Greek culture?
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euthy
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 07:44 pm |
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jailkerry wrote:
euthy wrote: Your very wrong indeed. The fundament of our society and the fundament of christianity is built on homosexuality. The fundament of your society...maybe. Christianity...absolutely not! Plato, the fathers of cristianity himself would often have sex with men. Plato had nothing to do with Christianity! He was a deist, worshipping the many Greek gods. The same goes for his teacher Sokrates and his student Aristoteles, the founder of modern science and still the root from which much of our modern thinking comes from. Why the christiants adobted so much from anciant Greecem but not homosexuality is actually an interesting question. What exactly did Christianity, with it's tenets of monotheism and acceptance of the salvation offered by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ adopt from Aristotle, Socrates and Plato? Or from the Greek culture?
In short terms? About everything. One of Platos main ideas was that reality could be split into 4 parts, each of them a level of understanding that could be reached by humans by different means. The lowest level is pictures and shadows, deflections of reality, the next level is the senses and their world. The third is abstract though and terms. The fourht is the "Idea-world", the ideal world, everything else is an image of the idea-world. The terms are images, reflections of ideas, the senses are reflections of the terms and images and shadows are reflections of the senseble world. He believed that it is imperative to ignore the senses, as they are false, and continue to search higher and higher with terms and denial of senses to finally reach the idea-world the basis of everything. It is this thought, alongside with the idea that peple must be "turned" from the tricking senses in order to come to their senses. It is a fact that all christian philosophers based their writings and thougts on the old greece, adjusting the greece thoughts whenever they came into conflict with the Bible. The scholastics with the reknown Thomas Aquinas lead this movement. Aristoteles and his Academy of science lay the ground for all other science. Aristoteles formulated with his own words the foundation of what he saw as evidence or truth, and it is these thoughts that we to this day use in almost every science. You must read him in order to understand the impact he has had upon our world. Sokrates laid the foundation for the thought that there in this world exists fundamental values and morals which everyman is under. He argumented against the more relativist sofists and lay the foundation of the rising monotheistic religions. Gays have laid the foundation of about everything which characterize the western society today. No wonder you conservatives are always angry, you live under the rules of some freakkin' fa*gots!
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zzpat
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 07:52 pm |
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euthy wrote:
Your very wrong indeed. The fundament of our society and the fundament of christianity is built on homosexuality.In the ancient Greece, homosexuality was valued highly, and practiced by almost everyone within the higher classes in Athens. It was quite normal for elderly philophers/rhetoricans to take younger apprentices in and learn them about the adult life, which included homosexuality. Plato, the fathers of cristianity himself would often have sex with men. The same goes for his teacher Sokrates and his student Aristoteles, the founder of modern science and still the root from which much of our modern thinking comes from. Why the christiants adobted so much from anciant Greecem but not homosexuality is actually an interesting question.
There are many errors, where do I start?
First, the men of Athens were required to marry and have children, though prior to and after such duty they could have sex with other men. However, to suggest these sexual acts were homosexual is simply absurd. They were same-sex, but not same sex love. Homosexuality is same sex love, not just same gender sex.
Pagans used same gender sex within their religious rituals and clearly the new Christian religion wasn't keen on that, so Paul takes this on full force in Romans 1.
I don't know of any ancient text that says same sex love was accepted or cherished in any way. If you know of any, please drop me a note.
One of the possible reasons why men had sex with other men in Greece is because women weren't educated and the Greeks were learned. Men became best friends and sexual partners because they were equals.
Btw, Greece gave us almost every concept of our current democracy. It's the birth place of democracy itself, practiced from around 600 BC to around 600 AD (though some dispute the exact dates).
My point remains the same, same sex love is a new concept. As far as I know the idea was first advanced in the mid 1800's.
PatLast edited on Thu Oct 7th, 2004 07:53 pm by zzpat
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Horseface
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 07:59 pm |
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zzpat wrote: euthy wrote:
Your very wrong indeed. The fundament of our society and the fundament of christianity is built on homosexuality.In the ancient Greece, homosexuality was valued highly, and practiced by almost everyone within the higher classes in Athens. It was quite normal for elderly philophers/rhetoricans to take younger apprentices in and learn them about the adult life, which included homosexuality. Plato, the fathers of cristianity himself would often have sex with men. The same goes for his teacher Sokrates and his student Aristoteles, the founder of modern science and still the root from which much of our modern thinking comes from. Why the christiants adobted so much from anciant Greecem but not homosexuality is actually an interesting question.
There are many errors, where do I start?
First, the men of Athens were required to marry and have children, though prior to and after such duty they could have sex with other men. However, to suggest these sexual acts were homosexual is simply absurd. They were same-sex, but not same sex love. Homosexuality is same sex love, not just same gender sex.
Pagans used same gender sex within their religious rituals and clearly the new Christian religion wasn't keen on that, so Paul takes this on full force in Romans 1.
I don't know of any ancient text that says same sex love was accepted or cherished in any way. If you know of any, please drop me a note.
One of the possible reasons why men had sex with other men in Greece is because women weren't educated and the Greeks were learned. Men became best friends and sexual partners because they were equals.
Btw, Greece gave us almost every concept of our current democracy. It's the birth place of democracy itself, practiced from around 600 BC to around 600 AD (though some dispute the exact dates).
My point remains the same, same sex love is a new concept. As far as I know the idea was first advanced in the mid 1800's.
Pat
Same sex love is not the definition of homosexuality
Homosexuality: erotic activity with another of the same sex.
Your whole post is BS
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zzpat
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:01 pm |
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jailkerry wrote:
ZZPAT.....
The sins of Soddom and Gammorrah DID include homosexuality, along with rape. The OT (which was written around 4000 years ago)did have proscriptions against homosexuality, which were further reinforced in the NT by Paul and ther writers. I can go on if you wish...complete with references and quotes.
Please cite your source for homosexual acts (consensual sex) in the story of Sodom. This is a myth and or lie. I can prove it by asking you to read the story. After reading the story give me the exact quote that refers to same sex consensual sex. You won’t find it.
In Romans, Paul is referring to same sex lust, not same sex love and he says God delivered men and women up into this sin because they had false Gods. Read Romans 1 and you’ll agree with me.
Again, reread the story of Sodom in Gen. 19. You'll see there was no same sex consensual sex in that story, or you can simply trust me.
[the story is very, very short]
Pat
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euthy
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:02 pm |
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zzpat wrote:
euthy wrote:
Your very wrong indeed. The fundament of our society and the fundament of christianity is built on homosexuality.In the ancient Greece, homosexuality was valued highly, and practiced by almost everyone within the higher classes in Athens. It was quite normal for elderly philophers/rhetoricans to take younger apprentices in and learn them about the adult life, which included homosexuality. Plato, the fathers of cristianity himself would often have sex with men. The same goes for his teacher Sokrates and his student Aristoteles, the founder of modern science and still the root from which much of our modern thinking comes from. Why the christiants adobted so much from anciant Greecem but not homosexuality is actually an interesting question.
There are many errors, where do I start?
First, the men of Athens were required to marry and have children, though prior to and after such duty they could have sex with other men. However, to suggest these sexual acts were homosexual is simply absurd. They were same-sex, but not same sex love. Homosexuality is same sex love, not just same gender sex.
Pagans used same gender sex within their religious rituals and clearly the new Christian religion wasn't keen on that, so Paul takes this on full force in Romans 1.
I don't know of any ancient text that says same sex love was accepted or cherished in any way. If you know of any, please drop me a note.
One of the possible reasons why men had sex with other men in Greece is because women weren't educated and the Greeks were learned. Men became best friends and sexual partners because they were equals.
Btw, Greece gave us almost every concept of our current democracy. It's the birth place of democracy itself, practiced from around 600 BC to around 600 AD (though some dispute the exact dates).
My point remains the same, same sex love is a new concept. As far as I know the idea was first advanced in the mid 1800's.
Pat
I agree almost totally. The same sex was based on the consensus that men where above woman, and therefore sex with men was also above sex with woman. Same sex love was especially cherished as you can read in Platos "Symposion" a dialog in which Sokrates discusses "Eros", which is love, with a number of otehr greek intellectuals. In this book several of the men involved in the dialog feels and claims that sex with men is indeed a matter of love. Although the concept of love was different in Greece. One of the men believes that love is between two consenting adults which fits together, in that way that only two people fit together perfectly(the concept of "the one true love which we still use today).
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zzpat
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:03 pm |
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Horseface wrote:
Same sex love is not the definition of homosexuality
Homosexuality: erotic activity with another of the same sex.
Your whole post is BS
Can I correctly assume that hetrosexuality is just erotic activity with someone of the same sex? Don't be silly.
http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html
"Sexual Orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual or affectional attraction to another person. It is easily distinguished from other components of sexuality including biological sex, gender identity (the psychological sense of being male or female) and the social gender role (adherence to cultural norms for feminine and masculine behavior).
Sexual orientation exists along a continuum that ranges from exclusive homosexuality to exclusive heterosexuality and includes various forms of bisexuality. Bisexual persons can experience sexual, emotional and affectional attraction to both their own sex and the opposite sex. Persons with a homosexual orientation are sometimes referred to as gay (both men and women) or as lesbian (women only).
Sexual orientation is different from sexual behavior because it refers to feelings and self-concept. Persons may or may not express their sexual orientation in their behaviors."
Pat
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Horseface
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:05 pm |
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zzpat wrote: jailkerry wrote:
ZZPAT.....
The sins of Soddom and Gammorrah DID include homosexuality, along with rape. The OT (which was written around 4000 years ago)did have proscriptions against homosexuality, which were further reinforced in the NT by Paul and ther writers. I can go on if you wish...complete with references and quotes.
Please cite your source for homosexual acts (consensual sex) in the story of Sodom. This is a myth and or lie. I can prove it by asking you to read the story. After reading the story give me the exact quote that refers to same sex consensual sex. You won’t find it.
In Romans, Paul is referring to same sex lust, not same sex love and he says God delivered men and women up into this sin because they had false Gods. Read Romans 1 and you’ll agree with me.
Again, reread the story of Sodom in Gen. 19. You'll see there was no same sex consensual sex in that story, or you can simply trust me.
[the story is very, very short]
Pat
Once again you are mistaken:
And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
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zzpat
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:08 pm |
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euthy wrote:
I agree almost totally. The same sex was based on the consensus that men where above woman, and therefore sex with men was also above sex with woman. Same sex love was especially cherished as you can read in Platos "Symposion" a dialog in which Sokrates discusses "Eros", which is love, with a number of otehr greek intellectuals. In this book several of the men involved in the dialog feels and claims that sex with men is indeed a matter of love. Although the concept of love was different in Greece. One of the men believes that love is between two consenting adults which fits together, in that way that only two people fit together perfectly(the concept of "the one true love which we still use today).
Are you referring to sexual love? Men have loved other men (obviously a father loves his son etc.) and clearly there was same gender sex, but I'm not so sure about same gender sexual love as viewed by modern scientific theory (IE: homosexuality).
PatLast edited on Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:09 pm by zzpat
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Horseface
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:08 pm |
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Can I correctly assume that hetrosexuality is just erotic activity with someone of the same sex? Don't be silly.
No.
Heterosexuality: of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward the opposite sex b : of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between individuals of opposite sex
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Horseface
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:12 pm |
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| No comment on Sodom?
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zzpat
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:13 pm |
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Horseface wrote:
Can I correctly assume that hetrosexuality is just erotic activity with someone of the same sex? Don't be silly.
No.
Heterosexuality: of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward the opposite sex b : of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between individuals of opposite sex
Sexual Orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual or affectional attraction to another person. It is easily distinguished from other components of sexuality including biological sex, gender identity (the psychological sense of being male or female) and the social gender role (adherence to cultural norms for feminine and masculine behavior).
http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html#whatis
It's not just the act of sex. Perhaps I should have used the words "sexual orientation" instead of homosexuality. This is getting silly.
Pat
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Horseface
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:14 pm |
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Horseface wrote: No comment on Sodom?
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euthy
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:16 pm |
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zzpat wrote:
euthy wrote:
I agree almost totally. The same sex was based on the consensus that men where above woman, and therefore sex with men was also above sex with woman. Same sex love was especially cherished as you can read in Platos "Symposion" a dialog in which Sokrates discusses "Eros", which is love, with a number of otehr greek intellectuals. In this book several of the men involved in the dialog feels and claims that sex with men is indeed a matter of love. Although the concept of love was different in Greece. One of the men believes that love is between two consenting adults which fits together, in that way that only two people fit together perfectly(the concept of "the one true love which we still use today).
Are you referring to sexual love? Men have loved other men (obviously a father loves his son etc.) and clearly there was same gender sex, but I'm not so sure about same gender sexual love as viewed by modern scientific theory (IE: homosexuality).
Pat
This is Eros, which involves sexual love. The discussion does involve homosexuality, as one man starts his speach by making an example about him having sex with a young, pretty man. I have read the book and there is no doubt that when they speak of love between men it is erotic relationships. If you are willing to believe my word. I dont have the book here with me.Last edited on Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:17 pm by euthy
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Horseface
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:16 pm |
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Horseface wrote: zzpat wrote: jailkerry wrote:
ZZPAT.....
The sins of Soddom and Gammorrah DID include homosexuality, along with rape. The OT (which was written around 4000 years ago)did have proscriptions against homosexuality, which were further reinforced in the NT by Paul and ther writers. I can go on if you wish...complete with references and quotes.
Please cite your source for homosexual acts (consensual sex) in the story of Sodom. This is a myth and or lie. I can prove it by asking you to read the story. After reading the story give me the exact quote that refers to same sex consensual sex. You won’t find it.
In Romans, Paul is referring to same sex lust, not same sex love and he says God delivered men and women up into this sin because they had false Gods. Read Romans 1 and you’ll agree with me.
Again, reread the story of Sodom in Gen. 19. You'll see there was no same sex consensual sex in that story, or you can simply trust me.
[the story is very, very short]
Pat
Once again you are mistaken:
And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
You made some big claims and I would like to hear your response, please.
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zzpat
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:20 pm |
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I just remmbered....didn't Saint Augustine love another man in his "Confessions?"
Can anyone verify?
Pat
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Horseface
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2004 08:23 pm |
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Still no response? Why?
In Sodom the men were screaming for Lot to give up the travelers for sex..........or homosexuality
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