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Republican 14
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Posted: Mon Aug 29th, 2005 06:37 am |
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brontosaurus wrote: The Jewish Torah starts with "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy."
The Christian Bible starts with "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy."
The Q'uran starts with "The Opening, The Cow, The Family of Imran, The Woman..."
For both the Jewish and Christian Bibles, the first 39 books are the same. Depending on the size of the Bible, this roughly 800 pages of identical text.
Not ONE VERSE in the entire Q'uran is identical to a verse in either the Jewish or Christian Bible.
Not entirely true the Catholic Bibles add Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, 1&2 Maccabees, and extra chapters to Daniel and Esther. Eastern Orthodox Bibles also add others IN ADDITION TO THE CATHOLIC BIBLES! ![[usa]](/forums/themes/default/usa.gif)
Last edited on Mon Aug 29th, 2005 06:37 am by Republican 14
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brontosaurus
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Posted: Mon Aug 29th, 2005 06:40 am |
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Republican 14 wrote: brontosaurus wrote: The Jewish Torah starts with "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy."
The Christian Bible starts with "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy."
The Q'uran starts with "The Opening, The Cow, The Family of Imran, The Woman..."
For both the Jewish and Christian Bibles, the first 39 books are the same. Depending on the size of the Bible, this roughly 800 pages of identical text.
Not ONE VERSE in the entire Q'uran is identical to a verse in either the Jewish or Christian Bible.
Not entirely true the Catholic Bibles add Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, 1&2 Maccabees, and extra chapters to Daniel and Esther. Eastern Orthodox Bibles also add others IN ADDITION TO THE CATHOLIC BIBLES!
granted. I'm not Catholic, but even if I was, they STILL don't change the Jewish texts.
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Republican 14
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Posted: Mon Aug 29th, 2005 06:42 am |
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brontosaurus wrote: Republican 14 wrote: brontosaurus wrote: The Jewish Torah starts with "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy."
The Christian Bible starts with "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy."
The Q'uran starts with "The Opening, The Cow, The Family of Imran, The Woman..."
For both the Jewish and Christian Bibles, the first 39 books are the same. Depending on the size of the Bible, this roughly 800 pages of identical text.
Not ONE VERSE in the entire Q'uran is identical to a verse in either the Jewish or Christian Bible.
Not entirely true the Catholic Bibles add Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, 1&2 Maccabees, and extra chapters to Daniel and Esther. Eastern Orthodox Bibles also add others IN ADDITION TO THE CATHOLIC BIBLES!
granted. I'm not Catholic, but even if I was, they STILL don't change the Jewish texts.
That's true but I still wish they didn't add those. Also I forgot but they add Baruch (I think it include the Epistle of Jeremiah but I'm not entirely sure.)
Last edited on Mon Aug 29th, 2005 06:43 am by Republican 14
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rachamim18
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Posted: Mon Aug 29th, 2005 02:14 pm |
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| Florida: Very good and correct post. Many people make that mistaken assumption about the New Testament. In compariosn, the Old Testament is considered to be the verbatim of expression of the Creator and encompasses Jewish history and religous doctrine. The New Testament however is a collection of letters and a tad bit of uncredited revelation written byt the early followers of the Apostlkes [or the Apostles if you belive the majority of Christains].
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sophion
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Posted: Mon Aug 29th, 2005 04:28 pm |
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Florida was actually arguing against popular INTERPRETATIONS of the new testament. She did not actually provide one instance wherein the New Testament contradicted an existing Old Testament story.
The Quran actually contradicted several stories of the bible. The most significant contradiction/corruption is the assertion that Jesus was never crucified. Completely reverses the New Testament Gospel stories about Jesus.
Last edited on Mon Aug 29th, 2005 04:29 pm by sophion
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rachamim18
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Posted: Mon Aug 29th, 2005 05:01 pm |
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| Sophion: My favorite Islamic change was the Hadi't story about Muhammed on his flying horse after he died. He flies to Jerusalem which of course he never came close to in life and lands on the Temple Mount. From there he asceneds into Paradise where he sees all the Prophets sitting at the feet of Allah. Jesus is supposedly red haired and freckled. I have often wondered what possesed the scribes to add that effectation? The story typifies Islam's attempt to usurp Judisaim and Christianity as the region's preeminent religions.
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brontosaurus
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 12:41 am |
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another interesting thing to note is this: at least in America today the most conservative Christians hold Judaism in very high regard. The most conservative Jews (or orthodox) for the most part have a deep respect for Christians. The two don't always agree but each sees the other as a positive influence on America's culture.
The most conservative Muslims find Jews and Christians not only a threat but worthy of death.
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rachamim18
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 01:55 pm |
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| Brontosauras: "Most Jews and Christians in America hold each other in high regard and voew each other as positive influences on America." Partly correct. Both fot hem are doing so for almost entirely selfish reasons. Christians, evangelicals anyway, see the Jews reestablishment of Israel as a neccessary part of the Second Coming of Christ. In other words, they still se Jews as theologically inferior but intrinsically connected to their own religious hopes. The Jews on the other hand see the evangelical's support of Israel as a good thing because of its obvious effect on US/Israeli relations.
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hairy
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 04:44 pm |
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 Right on
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 05:13 pm |
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I may be a dunce, or in a vast minority. BUT... I see (or try to see) people as people first, and whatever group they belong in as secondary - if at all. When I had Palestinian friends who told me about losing their homes when the Israelis took over, it broke my heart. When I heard of Sikhs being killed for their faith, I was appalled. When I learned of entire castes of people in India who are considered "unclean" or "untouchables" for no other reason than that is what their parents were, I am stunned. When I hear of the JW down the street who is shunned in kindergarten because he doesn't celebrate birthdays, I am saddened. All injustice is unjust.* It does not matter who it is effecting. I believe it is all wrong. If God wants to punish someone, God is certainly quite capable of doing it.
*I am not talking about justice which is meted out through court systems. I am talking more about individual cases when people take "justice" into their own hands!
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Florida
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 05:38 pm |
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MB wrote: I may be a dunce, or in a vast minority. BUT... I see (or try to see) people as people first, and whatever group they belong in as secondary - if at all. When I had Palestinian friends who told me about losing their homes when the Israelis took over, it broke my heart. When I heard of Sikhs being killed for their faith, I was appalled. When I learned of entire castes of people in India who are considered "unclean" or "untouchables" for no other reason than that is what their parents were, I am stunned. When I hear of the JW down the street who is shunned in kindergarten because he doesn't celebrate birthdays, I am saddened. All injustice is unjust.* It does not matter who it is effecting. I believe it is all wrong. If God wants to punish someone, God is certainly quite capable of doing it.
*I am not talking about justice which is meted out through court systems. I am talking more about individual cases when people take "justice" into their own hands!
MB:
Thank You! I wish we could get beyond the labels, too! Unfortunately taking justice into one's own hands all too often mean vigilantism, hatred and destruction. But I do know that's not what you meant...more along the lines of people doing what is right just because it is right rather than because some rule said they had to!
There is a saying, and I cannot remember the attribution (maybe someone can help me?) about where there is true morality, laws are not needed, and where there is not, laws will not work.
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 05:40 pm |
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| Florida - excellent quote!!
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rachamim18
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 06:12 pm |
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| MB: I do not think that you are a dunce at all for feeling that way...just extremely naive. You see, while such feelings are great, they are not at all realistic. There are correct things, and incorrect things. If somebody invades your home and steals your land, you cannot sit back and accept it as natural. However, in the Mid-East communal violence, it then becomes neccessary to find the root of the situation. The truth of the matter is, that it was never Arab land. There has never been an Arab nation there, or Arab govt. The Arabs now have 23 other nations, plus over 20 more non-Arab Muslim nations that are alligned with them. The Jews ARE the only existing people to have ever had a nation there, as well as being the longest continuous inhabitants of the land...with over 3500 years and counting. Of course they only have one nation and it takes 1% of the total landmass in the region [thanks Looshawn for that figure, it is correct]. You see, these things need to be considered...
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 06:16 pm |
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| Of COURSE, they need to be considered. Please note that I was mostly speaking of vengeance on a personal level - and judgments of people on these basis. I do not hate all of one particular group because some of them trampled on the rights of others or whatever. That's ridiculous.
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rachamim18
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 06:19 pm |
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| MB: YOu are ABSOLUTELY correct. In the Mid-East, there is amuch different cultural context but I do feel the same way.
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Florida
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 07:28 pm |
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I am still trying to find the source for that quote, but no luck so far. THis is not the quote, biut one that says much the same thing:
"It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right."
Henry David Thoreau
And as for the intense hatred I keep hearing against all Muslims on here (except for you, MB, and a couple of others), this seems to be on the mark...
A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular.
Adlai Ewing Stevenson
Is it really safe to be a practicing Musllim in the USA today? Given the words I've heard on here, and the things I've seen and heard my Muslim friends go through, I would say not! So are we a free society?
Finally, this quote....
God made so many different kinds of people. Why would he allow only one way to serve him? ~Martin Buber
Gotta get back to work now.
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Florida
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 07:58 pm |
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Just one more...this one will (should?) make you think about just how much all people have in common and just what we focus upon instead!
"I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said 'Stop! don't do it!' 'Why shouldn't I?' he said. I said, 'Well, there's so much to live for!' He said, 'Like what?' I said, 'Well...are you religious or atheist?' He said, 'Religious.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?' He said, 'Christian.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?' He said, 'Protestant.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?' He said, 'Baptist!' I said, 'Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?' He said, 'Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you original Baptist church of god, or are you reformed Baptist church of god?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!' I said, 'Die, heretic scum,' and pushed him off." ~Emo Phillips
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sophion
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Posted: Wed Aug 31st, 2005 08:08 pm |
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Florida wrote: Is it really safe to be a practicing Musllim in the USA today? Given the words I've heard on here, and the things I've seen and heard my Muslim friends go through, I would say not! So are we a free society?
There are about 3-6 million muslims in america today. How many were physically harmed or verbally (criminally) abused since 9/11?
Not enough to make news or raise protests.
So I suppose it is really safe to be a practicing muslim in the USA. However, to be a practicing Jihadi Muslim (one who practices the violent message of Islam), I dont think one would be safe from the law itself.
Florida, you are sooooo pessimistic. I feel sorry for you.
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Florida
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 12:03 am |
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sophion wrote: Florida wrote: Is it really safe to be a practicing Musllim in the USA today? Given the words I've heard on here, and the things I've seen and heard my Muslim friends go through, I would say not! So are we a free society?
There are about 3-6 million muslims in america today. How many were physically harmed or verbally (criminally) abused since 9/11?
Not enough to make news or raise protests.
So I suppose it is really safe to be a practicing muslim in the USA. However, to be a practicing Jihadi Muslim (one who practices the violent message of Islam), I dont think one would be safe from the law itself.
Florida, you are sooooo pessimistic. I feel sorry for you.
Since I clearly do not know but a fraction of the Muslims in America today, I can only speak of those I do...
My fiance's restaurant was burned down 2 weeks after Sept 11th. It was preceeded by death threats in the mail. The local police officer's response to the arson? Outrage? Anger? Heck no! He said "Well what do YOU PEOPLE expect?" (Emphasis NOT added!) My fiance is Egyptian...none of the hijeckers were Egyptian. He is an American citizen and has lived here since age 17.
Another business in this supposed metropolitan area serves only tourists...the locals have boycotted his business since Sept 11th. He is half Egyptian, half Greek. He receives an average of 2 hate mails each and every week. None of the hijackers were Egyptian OR Greek!
Child in my daughter's preschool class was told by three classmates that their mommies said she will burn in h*** for what happened in New York. The child was 4 years old, and from India. None of the hijackers were Indian.
My fiance's daughter was told she had to eat ham in school during a Dr Seuss Day project or she would fail. The teacher, who knows she is Muslim, and knows that pork is forbidden to her, said that that's the rule in America. She is 6.
Most of the Muslim men I know dare not attend services at the the Mosque any more because those who do are regularly harassed by so-called Homeland Security (Der Furer). They have effectively lost their freedom to assemble and freedom to worship! Most are citizens, some native born.
A Muslim student teacher here was dismissed a month after Sept 11th, with the school saying she was a saftely risk to the children. She had all outstanding ratings prior to Sept 11th. She was born in the US.
...and that is JUST in my little corner of the world! Of course it doesn't make the news...it might make people think twice about the official stance that all Muslims are evil and therefore we are justified in invading their countries and killing them! It's the MaCarthy-ism of the new millenium, only instead of the Communist Threat, it's the Islamic threat, ...same rhetoric, bigger bombs.
And I am confused about the pessimistic comment. I am saddened by the bigotry, certain that through education and awareness, the hatred can be ended, and positive that we are ALL children of G-d, just on different paths. Pessemistic? Hardly!
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beaton1
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 12:11 am |
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| no true christian believes that the devil or God made us do anything. satan tempts us and God gives instruction, and we choose what we do with it.
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