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Anglo
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Posted: Fri Feb 4th, 2005 02:36 pm |
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betchamad wrote: Anglo wrote: betchamad wrote: Why christians haven't our own al-qaidas? <- No suggest anything,but just wonder why.I mean boom up few mosque is much better than yawling hatre on the street or interenet.
Maybe it's because real Christians (have you every met any) don't believe in blowing people up, irrespective of their religion. I am not a Christian but I thought the philosophy was about tolerance, understanding and "love thine enemy". Also what about "Vengeance is mine - I will repay" It's in the bible somewhere.
Best thing you can do is go to Kabul or somewhere and start the fight yourself.
So,you like to watching those mosque more and more appearing on christian's land?Maybe u living in londonstan do you?And "love own enemy" is NOT = "love God's enemy Satan"! As I already said. I am not a Christian so whether the buildings are churches, mosques, buddhist or sikh temples means nothing to me. How have you come to the conclusion that Muslims = Gods enemy, Satan?
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Euro
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Posted: Fri Feb 4th, 2005 04:45 pm |
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| How can we stop the islamization of Europe?
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Esau hated Jacob
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Posted: Fri Feb 4th, 2005 04:58 pm |
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The audacity of the " new immigrants" is ridiculous. Mexicans, for example, expect Amercians to speak spanish not they other way around. Billions is spent on translating documents for people that REFUSE to adapt to their new situations. They enter ILLEGALLY and expectt to drive, work, receive ALL the same benefits as American citizens while contributing NOTHING in return except enormous education and health care bills that Americans should pay with their tax dollars.
Islamics are no different in Europe. They expect an Islamic state to be created to satisfy their own religious beliefs while not taking into account the thousands of years of the countries culture and traditions.
Hey, if you don't like the country that you just entered illegally......go home.![[usa]](/forums/themes/default/usa.gif)
Last edited on Fri Feb 4th, 2005 05:00 pm by Esau hated Jacob
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Dutch
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Posted: Fri Feb 4th, 2005 06:29 pm |
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Esau hated Jacob wrote: The audacity of the " new immigrants" is ridiculous. Mexicans, for example, expect Amercians to speak spanish not they other way around. Billions is spent on translating documents for people that REFUSE to adapt to their new situations. They enter ILLEGALLY and expectt to drive, work, receive ALL the same benefits as American citizens while contributing NOTHING in return except enormous education and health care bills that Americans should pay with their tax dollars.
Islamics are no different in Europe. They expect an Islamic state to be created to satisfy their own religious beliefs while not taking into account the thousands of years of the countries culture and traditions. So you know being from the other side of the Big Pond that ALL Muslims in Europe want to create an Islamic state without taking in account the rich heritage of Europe? Wow you must know more than 99,99% of the Europeans back here 
Hey, if you don't like the country that you just entered illegally......go home. For what I know, most Muslims in Europe have entered the continent legally, but I have the feeling you switched to talking about Mexicans here, not?
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Esau hated Jacob
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Posted: Fri Feb 4th, 2005 06:49 pm |
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Dutch wrote: Esau hated Jacob wrote: The audacity of the " new immigrants" is ridiculous. Mexicans, for example, expect Amercians to speak spanish not they other way around. Billions is spent on translating documents for people that REFUSE to adapt to their new situations. They enter ILLEGALLY and expectt to drive, work, receive ALL the same benefits as American citizens while contributing NOTHING in return except enormous education and health care bills that Americans should pay with their tax dollars.
Islamics are no different in Europe. They expect an Islamic state to be created to satisfy their own religious beliefs while not taking into account the thousands of years of the countries culture and traditions. So you know being from the other side of the Big Pond that ALL Muslims in Europe want to create an Islamic state without taking in account the rich heritage of Europe? Wow you must know more than 99,99% of the Europeans back here
Hey, if you don't like the country that you just entered illegally......go home. For what I know, most Muslims in Europe have entered the continent legally, but I have the feeling you switched to talking about Mexicans here, not?
I am sure your wife will look very beautiful in her Burka.
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Dutch
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Posted: Fri Feb 4th, 2005 07:40 pm |
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Esau hated Jacob wrote: Dutch wrote: Esau hated Jacob wrote: The audacity of the " new immigrants" is ridiculous. Mexicans, for example, expect Amercians to speak spanish not they other way around. Billions is spent on translating documents for people that REFUSE to adapt to their new situations. They enter ILLEGALLY and expectt to drive, work, receive ALL the same benefits as American citizens while contributing NOTHING in return except enormous education and health care bills that Americans should pay with their tax dollars.
Islamics are no different in Europe. They expect an Islamic state to be created to satisfy their own religious beliefs while not taking into account the thousands of years of the countries culture and traditions. So you know being from the other side of the Big Pond that ALL Muslims in Europe want to create an Islamic state without taking in account the rich heritage of Europe? Wow you must know more than 99,99% of the Europeans back here
Hey, if you don't like the country that you just entered illegally......go home. For what I know, most Muslims in Europe have entered the continent legally, but I have the feeling you switched to talking about Mexicans here, not?
I am sure your wife will look very beautiful in her Burka.
Is this your way of handling the discussion?
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ANI
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 01:05 am |
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| I don't want to start an argument, but, honestly I think that the Liberal movement which has made it so that immigrants did not have to assimilate into the existing society is creating the real problem. This from an immigrant , if I had not had to learn English and the cultural habits around me ...I'm sure that I would not feel as much a part of this community and this culture and would probably feel somewhat suppressed.
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Great White
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 01:06 am |
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ANI wrote: I don't want to start an argument, but, honestly I think that the Liberal movement which has made it so that immigrants did not have to assimilate into the existing society is creating the real problem. This from an immigrant , if I had not had to learn English and the cultural habits around me ...I'm sure that I would not feel as much a part of this community and this culture and would probably feel somewhat suppressed.
I'll tell you this. Multi-culturalism instead of assimilation is screwing up my country, and I'm fighting tooth and nail to stop it
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Euro
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 01:08 pm |
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Dutch flag "insulting to Muslim immigrants", banned from Dutch schools
The Dutch have banned their flag, but I'm sure they'll be quite happy to wear the zunnar. (The zunnar, folks, was a cloth belt worn by dhimmis, to signify their inferior status.) From Rayra at LGF comes this:
In the Netherlands the national flag is now banned on most schools. If a student wears the national flag of his own country he will be suspended or expelled from school. The reason for this is that this provokes the immigrants (the muslims) and therefore it is considered discrimination if you wear your country's flag in your own country. Even people who have an bumpersticker whit the flag on their car are harassed and called a facist by the Muslims. Most schools also ban certain clothing like the Lonsdale brand and combat boots with white or red laces. This is also concidered a sign of racism. There are of course no restrictions for the immigrants on clothing. Dutch article here.
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Billy the Kid
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 01:36 pm |
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Euro wrote: Dutch flag "insulting to Muslim immigrants", banned from Dutch schools
The Dutch have banned their flag, but I'm sure they'll be quite happy to wear the zunnar. (The zunnar, folks, was a cloth belt worn by dhimmis, to signify their inferior status.) From Rayra at LGF comes this:
In the Netherlands the national flag is now banned on most schools. If a student wears the national flag of his own country he will be suspended or expelled from school. The reason for this is that this provokes the immigrants (the muslims) and therefore it is considered discrimination if you wear your country's flag in your own country. Even people who have an bumpersticker whit the flag on their car are harassed and called a facist by the Muslims. Most schools also ban certain clothing like the Lonsdale brand and combat boots with white or red laces. This is also concidered a sign of racism. There are of course no restrictions for the immigrants on clothing.
Dutch article here.
Wow! That's absolutely stupid, IMO.
It's easier now, for me, to see how europe got into the mess with Hitler. They rolled over and rolled over, until he had them by the nads.
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Dutch
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 01:47 pm |
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ANI wrote: I don't want to start an argument, but, honestly I think that the Liberal movement which has made it so that immigrants did not have to assimilate into the existing society is creating the real problem. This from an immigrant , if I had not had to learn English and the cultural habits around me ...I'm sure that I would not feel as much a part of this community and this culture and would probably feel somewhat suppressed.
Actually, you do have a point here. After the murder on Van Gogh there has been a huge debate about whether our multicultural society has failed in its existence. Personally I wouldn't want to put it in such harsh words, but there are things which have gone wrong. It is false by the way to assume that immigrants don't have to learn the language. It is true that this happened in the 60s, 70s (maybe even up to the 80s and the 90s?) but anno 2005, all immigrants have to follow a so-called "inburgeringscursus" (naturalisationcourse) to learn the language and cultural habits and customs. The "dumb" thing is though that for a time (I don't know whether it is still the case), newly arrived immigrants, including refugees, had to pay hundreds of euros to follow the course. Not a real stimulus to take the course. I think the larger problem lies within where the new immigrants settle though. Most of them cluster in the big cities and form isolated communities, where mastering the Dutch language is not a priority among other things. It's funny actually that just yesterday a Moroccon delegation which visited the Netherlands said that many (older) immigrants were still living in the Morocco of the 50s and 60s, while Morocco has changed as well. I don't think though that applies for the second and third generation. For what I've seen, heard and experienced, many of these second and third generation are struggling with their identity: they are not 100% Moroccon (or Turkish, or Iraqi etc.) but neither are they 100% Dutch, which is blamed both on the Dutch society as well as the own ethnic communities.
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Dutch
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 02:12 pm |
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Euro wrote: Dutch flag "insulting to Muslim immigrants", banned from Dutch schools
The Dutch have banned their flag, but I'm sure they'll be quite happy to wear the zunnar. (The zunnar, folks, was a cloth belt worn by dhimmis, to signify their inferior status.) From Rayra at LGF comes this:
In the Netherlands the national flag is now banned on most schools. If a student wears the national flag of his own country he will be suspended or expelled from school. The reason for this is that this provokes the immigrants (the muslims) and therefore it is considered discrimination if you wear your country's flag in your own country. Even people who have an bumpersticker whit the flag on their car are harassed and called a facist by the Muslims. Most schools also ban certain clothing like the Lonsdale brand and combat boots with white or red laces. This is also concidered a sign of racism. There are of course no restrictions for the immigrants on clothing.
Dutch article here.
In fact, the Dutch flag is not banned from "most schools". The article does not state that. It does state that "more schools seem to have banned the Dutch flag". The article does not give a number. This is the first time I hear about this by the way, this story didn't make national headlines so I can't give a prediction as well.
I will translate the article:
"More schools seem to have banned the Dutch flag.
At the Green Heart Lyceum in Alphen aan de Rijn [Dutch city] the Dutch tri-color has already been absolutely forbidden for over a year now. All group-identified marks are not accepted anymore and students face suspension when they do dare to wear clothes or bags with flags on it. Readers reacted furiously earlier this week when they heard about the flagban at a school in IJsselstein [Dutch city], because the flags could provoke foreign co-students.
Execrated
An angry man reported yesterday he is regularly execrated by 'foreigners and leftish intellectuels' because he drives around in a dark blue ex-Defence car with a red-white-blue [colors of the Dutch flag] sticker on the back. "They tell me I'm a nationalist and a fascist. Maybe they can make a list on what Dutchmen can and cannot say and do" he says with a sarcastic undertone.
The Green Heart Lyceum says they are forced to take these measures because of the hardened climate at the school. Not only flags, but also clothes of the Lonsdale brand, combat boots with white or red laces and bomberjacks can have discrimination or ragging behavior as a consequence according to the school board. A spokesman of the school explains: "Sometimes the fat is in the fire and then we are forced to react. At those times we ban the object which caused the problem for a while". According to the school the students don't mind, but it are the parents who believe that their children are deprived of their own identity. "Everything happens here by mutual agreement, a ban is a big word". The National Racediscrimination Bureau does understand the schools, but believe it is of little use to ban preventively."
Source: de Telegraaf (the Telegraph)
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The Libertarian
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 02:22 pm |
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Dutch wrote: In fact, the Dutch flag is not banned from "most schools".
It shouldn't be banned in any of your schools. If this story is true then you guys need help. Banning your own country's flag in your own schools? That's just rediculous. Don't try defending the fact that "most" schools have not. Just one doing it should be reason enough for you to be p*ssed. Why are you defending it by saying "most" don't? Get mad at your own country for a change and it's policies.
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Dutch
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 02:55 pm |
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The Libertarian wrote: Dutch wrote: In fact, the Dutch flag is not banned from "most schools".
It shouldn't be banned in any of your schools. If this story is true then you guys need help. Banning your own country's flag in your own schools? That's just rediculous. Don't try defending the fact that "most" schools have not. Just one doing it should be reason enough for you to be p*ssed. Why are you defending it by saying "most" don't? Get mad at your own country for a change and it's policies.
I'm not saying I'm defending anything, I'm correcting Euro. I share the criticism of the National Racediscrimination Bureau that this is not a solution. A solution to what, you might ask? Look: in the Netherlands, few students wear Dutch flags on their coats, bags, whatever. It's not that we aren't proud of our country, it's just so; the majority of the schools also do not have a flag in front or on top of their building, like in the US. Many (of course not all) of the students who DO wear flags on their clothes or bags are nationalistic students, rightish students who in my opinion abuse our tri-color by linking it a bit to "one nation, one flag". For what I know and reading the article, the banning of the Dutch flags is also directed towards these students. To put it a bit in perspective. But as I said before, I don't think this is a solution, also because there might also be students who do not want to make a racist statement or whatever with it.
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Nelliebly
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 04:21 pm |
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Dutch wrote: The Libertarian wrote: Dutch wrote: In fact, the Dutch flag is not banned from "most schools".
It shouldn't be banned in any of your schools. If this story is true then you guys need help. Banning your own country's flag in your own schools? That's just rediculous. Don't try defending the fact that "most" schools have not. Just one doing it should be reason enough for you to be p*ssed. Why are you defending it by saying "most" don't? Get mad at your own country for a change and it's policies.
I'm not saying I'm defending anything, I'm correcting Euro. I share the criticism of the National Racediscrimination Bureau that this is not a solution. A solution to what, you might ask? Look: in the Netherlands, few students wear Dutch flags on their coats, bags, whatever. It's not that we aren't proud of our country, it's just so; the majority of the schools also do not have a flag in front or on top of their building, like in the US. Many (of course not all) of the students who DO wear flags on their clothes or bags are nationalistic students, rightish students who in my opinion abuse our tri-color by linking it a bit to "one nation, one flag". For what I know and reading the article, the banning of the Dutch flags is also directed towards these students. To put it a bit in perspective. But as I said before, I don't think this is a solution, also because there might also be students who do not want to make a racist statement or whatever with it.
I agree with you here Dutch. In my school-going days in the Netherlands, I never saw a Dutch flag at or near the schools. There wasn't even a Dutch flag outside city hall. Nobody had the flag on their bags or clothing. The only times the Dutch flag was very visible was on a national holiday: the Queen's Birthday, and of course worldchampionship soccer games . Other than that, most of us (in my younger days) would have reacted like "Why should I carry the flag? I know what it looks like. I know I'm Dutch." Rarely did you see an emblem of the Dutch flag on cars. In fact when you did see one, it was on the car of a tourist. I had emblems on my car from every country I had been to...but not the Dutch one (after all, my license plate 'showed' I was Dutch). That - in short - the attitude of most.
9/11 caused many Americans, including myself, to display the U.S. flag whenever and wherever they could. We all had our own reasons: solidarity, support, and yes - national pride. I'm sure that the peoples of most other nations would do the same if something similar were to happen there.
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Euro
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Posted: Sat Feb 5th, 2005 08:58 pm |
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UK:The rise of the Muslim Boys
By David Cohen, Evening Standard
3 February 2005
Winston emerges menacingly from the kitchen, a meat cleaver in one hand and a kitchen knife with an eight-inch blade in the other. "I love knives," he says, his eyes gleaming as he begins to slash the air inches from my face.
"Guns make a f***ing noise, but knives go in," he pauses, " silentlike, easy." He begins stabbing the wall and hacking the plaster, and then, just as suddenly, stops, seemingly sated, like an addict who has had his fix.
He holds up his blades to inspect them. "F***ing quality," he says, and deposits them unceremoniously his trousers. Winston, 21, black and from south London, licks his
 teeth as he paces around the stripped-bare flat on a Peckham estate that serves as one of his gang's many secret hideouts. He speaks in his gang's uniquely coded lingo.
"Knives is f***-all. Later, my bruvs will be back from their robberies with our skengelengs [guns] and cream [money]. Later there be MACinside-10s [sub-machine guns] all over the floor, laid wall to wall. And moolah! We count it - 10 grand, 20 grand. Then, after midnight," he adds, matter-of-factly, "me and my bruvs go to mosque to pray."
Winston's casual depiction of a lifestyle of crime tightly bound up with religious observance would normally be regarded as paradoxical, but in his case it is what defines him. For Winston is a member of the Muslim Boys, a gang, the black community says, unlike any that has operated before in south London.
Until now, the Muslim Boys have never allowed any members to be interviewed. Ex-convicts and youth workers who know some of them personally warned us: "It's too dangerous. They'll shoot you on the spot."
But an Evening Standard investigation - involving dozens of interviews and finding go-betweens with underworld connections who would agree to take us into one of the many dens of the Muslim Boys - has for the first time thrown light on this street phenomenon.
They number in their hundreds, according to some estimates, with ages ranging from 15 to 30, and their hallmark is extreme violence, with automatic and semi-automatic machine guns their weapons of choice. But what makes them unique is that they are socalled "converts", whose perverted interpretation of Islam is central to their identity as killers and criminals. Their stamping grounds are the estates of south London, where they hole-up in safe houses, living ascetic lives in stark contrast to the " blingbling" lifestyle of other gangs.
D e t e c t i v e Chief Superintendent John Coles, in charge of the Met's Operation Trident team, which investigates black-onblack shootings, confirmed that " the Muslim Boys are responsible for at least two executionstyle murders in the past eight months", as well as scores of robberies and attempted murders. "We have taken out most of the hardcore," he says. "We arrested 20 of them. The majority were sentenced for crimes ranging from murder to shootings to possession of firearms and drugs."
The shooting of PC Liam Morrow, shot in the legs in Bromley in December, has also been linked to the gang. A 19-yearold youth has been charged with attempted murder.
Coles believes, nevertheless, that the Muslim Boys have been "over-hyped", that there are "less than a hundred", and that they are nothing more than "nasty, ordinary south London criminals who have adopted the Muslim Boys name to make them sound bigger and more fearsome than they really are".
But Lee Jasper, the Mayor of London's senior advisor on policing, vehemently disagrees. He says: "The Muslim Boys pose one of the most serious criminal threats the black community has ever faced. The police tell me they have never seen anything like this gang before. They speak in an almost impenetrable code, they use heavy firepower, are forensically aware, unbelievably violent and extraordinarily disciplined. They're as tough to crack as the IRA."
Our investigation reveals that Jasper's concerns are shared by many - including youth workers dealing with vulnerable teenagers in south London.
The Muslim Boys, they say, are notorious for intimidating imams into opening their mosques in the early hours of the morning so that they can pray, often right after committing crimes, and for their "forced conversions", carried out at gunpoint, of black youths to Islam. At least one local young man, Adrian Marriott, thought to have resisted such a conversion, is believed to have been murdered "as an example to others".
At greatest risk of being forcibly recruited are "feral kids", the kind identified by outgoing Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir John Stevens as being left to fend for themselves without adult supervision, and who already operate on the fringes of criminality.
This is how gang member Winston describes "conversion". "You got to be Muslim to be in our group," he tells me. "If you not down ![[cool]](/forums/themes/default/cool-smiley-027.gif) with Muslim, we visit your home, maybe strip you naked in front of your f***ing mother, we put a gun in your mouth. We give you three days [to change your mind], then, if you not down with it, we f* * * ing blow
The existence of the gang is a cause of profound concern within the Muslim community. The precedent set by Richard Reid - the infamous " shoebomber" who prayed at Brixton mosque, and who was both a black convert and a criminal who became a terrorist - is one they don't want repeated.
Last month, the Brixton and Stockwell mosques moved to publicly distance themselves from the gang, saying - without actually naming the Muslim Boys - that there are "criminals masquerading as Muslims" who threaten the good name of their religion.
Abdul Haqq Baker, chairman of Brixton mosque, said: "What we are seeing is a new phenomenon that I have not seen in my 15 years as a Muslim." He added that TV scenes of militant uprisings in the Middle East are presenting a distorted view of Islam that appeals to criminals. "Keep away from our mosques," he pleaded.
Lee Jasper, speaking in his capacity as chair of the Lambeth police consultative group, says that "the story is potentially explosive", but that he is speaking out because he has become "increasingly frustrated" at the "lack of adequate police action".
"So far," he says tersely, meeting me face-to-face in central London, "police arrests have not made a dent in this lot. There is barely a major estate in Lambeth or Southwark - and increasingly in Lewisham - not dominated by the Muslim Boys. The problem is that the police treat them like an ordinary criminal gang, which they are not. I've asked them to increase their level of policing to a level appropriate for serious organised crime. But the Met has refused to raise its game."
Jasper's deepest worry - that "the leaders of the Muslim Boys could be a criminalised front for terrorist extremists" - is voiced by many with links to the south London underworld.
Trident's John Coles acknowledges these concerns, but says, "we have found no evidence whatsoever of a link to terrorism". Nevertheless, questions remain: if their crime spree is not funding a lavish lifestyle, what are the Muslim Boys doing with their illgotten gains?
The story of the rise of the Muslim Boys started 15 months ago, when a hardcore of Afro-Caribbean "Muslim converts" began violently "taxing" the south London criminal community. Dressed in long, flowing black leather coats, as in the film The Matrix, and initially dubbed "the Taliban Terrorists", these were exconvicts who had been turned on to Islam in prison, and who began to use the austere discipline of Islam to fashion a criminal network with a "higher" purpose.
Their first targets were other criminals - especially local drug dealers and pimps - who were ordered to pay "protection money". If the dealers refused, they were held at gunpoint, often facing the muzzle of a MAC-10.
In the early days, there were about 25 hardcore members, plus 40 " footsoldiers". They had come out of a gang called the SMS, the South Man Syndicate, and now began to rope in other crews, such as The Brotherhood and the Stockwell Crew, evolving into an umbrella crew called the PDC, Poverty Driven Children. To this day, gang members refer to themselves as PDC, regarding the Muslim Boys as a term used by outsiders.
By January 2004, the gang had managed the unique feat of uniting the bitterly divided south-east black criminal-fraternity against them. City officials became aware of a war brewing, says Jasper. "The police were warned: either you take them out, or we do. If you don't move on these guys, all hell will break loose."
Police arrests, it is claimed, have failed to break the gang. Instead, the Muslim Boys are believed to have prospered, recruiting inside Feltham, Brixton and Wandsworth prisons, as well as on the outside, and their numbers have leapfrogged from dozens to hundreds. It has helped that the Yardies, once the most feared gangsters in London, have become marginalised, and the Muslim Boys are said to have stepped into the breach.
Wayne Rowe, 39, an ex-prisoner working as a Brixton community liaison officer, explains their appeal. "For many poverty-stricken kids growing up alienated on estates, often without fathers, the Muslim Boys have become a seductive, alternative family."
One who was nearly seduced was Michael, 31, a youth worker for a south London charity, who thought of joining the gang after growing up alongside many of their older brothers. He says they have jumped on the al Qaeda bandwagon. "Since 9/11, Muslims have become demonised as the number one enemy and alienated black kids feel a kinship with this. The war in Iraq has taught them that those with the biggest guns rule, and so they have the biggest guns."
The trend of black youths converting to Islam has gathered pace in the past three years. Omar Urquhart, 34, imam of the Brixton mosque and himself a black convert to Islam, says: "Sixty per cent of their 500-strong community are black converts."
Unlike religions that have lengthy, formal conversions, the process in Islam can be instant. You neither have to convert in a mosque, nor in front of an imam, says the Muslim Council of Britain. All that is needed is that, in the presence of two other Muslims, you voluntarily make a declaration of faith "that none is worthy of worship except Allah" and that "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah".
But the conversions administered forcibly by the Muslim Boys are, says Imam Omar, totally anti-Islamic, as is their violent, criminal lifestyle.
Last June, the imam had to step in personally after Adrian Marriott - having been hounded by the gang to convert with bullying visits to his home - was found shot several times in the head, in parkland off Barrington Road, Brixton.
"I had to approach the family of the murdered boy and assure them that these criminals have nothing to do with real Islam, or with our mosque," he says. Three men in their early twenties have been charged with Adrian Marriott's murder.
The Standard's attempts to reach a member of the Muslim Boys initially came to nothing, with warnings that contact was "not possible". But suddenly, one afternoon, I am told: "A middle-ranking member will see you." I am driven down the Old Kent Road to a poverty-stricken estate - whose name I am obliged to keep secret - and led upstairs to a dingy-looking flat.
There, lithe and athletic, and fiddling incessantly with his knives, Winston speaks to me, often lapsing into his strange "lingwo", as he calls it, for over an hour. When the time feels right, I ask him about Adrian Marriott. "Yeah, I went to school with him, grew up with him." he says, spitting out each word with venom.
Why was he shot? I ask. "His name came up, innit. He was involved in this Muslim Boys t'ing. He did something that doubled back on his people. So they killed him. Shot in his mouth and his throat."
HAVE you killed anyone? I press him. "I've stabbed people," he says. "Everyone I know has." Ever shot anyone? "Not at close range. My other bruvs have, obviously. But I ain ' t, " he half- smiles, " 'cos I got a little bit of heart. I don't mind f***ing someone up, but I won't blow them in the mouth. I turn my head when I see them things happen, bruv. It happens."
Winston, who has done time in Feltham and Bullingdon prisons for burglary, armed robbery, GBH and affray, says his life of crime started when he left home and school at 14.
"My father, f*** him, he was a low-life drug addict. He held up banks and went to prison when I was 12. I never knew the lovely life - you know, nine-to-five, kids, settle down. My life is the grime. Look at this s***-hole. I'm on the run. This year I've lived in 15 places just like this."
Winston invites me to look around the flat, which he calls "the slumberdrop" and resembles a bolt-hole in a war zone. In the bedroom, there is a bed with a cardboard box stuffed full of clothes; the second bedroom, piled top to bottom with rubbish, cannot even be entered; and the living room has no carpet, just a foam-rubber sofa without upholstery and a small television.
"This is where we do everything - count the money, sell the drugs, hide our guns," he boasts. The picture Winston paints is of an affiliation of gangs - all "converted Muslims" - holding up banks and post offices, trading guns and "taxing" drug dealers, then returning days later to share the booty with affiliates. According to Winston, gang members fan out beyond London to towns such as Reading and Bristol.
If this is true, then Winston and his fellow Muslim Boys are responsible for a national crime wave whose significance extends way beyond south London.
Aren't you worried about the police catching up with you? "The police are f***-all - they don't bother me," he shoots back. "The people I worry about is the gangs. This t'ing of being a Muslim is a new t'ing. It used to be that being in a gang was an individual t'ing. You could come in and leave the next day. But this Muslim t'ing is for life. The only way I can get out of this is if I done a certain amount of murders, then I can get out at the last one."
When I ask Winston whether he believes in Islam, he prevaricates. "Sort of," he says. "I converted when I was in prison. I found it relaxing, we got better food. Now we all go to mosque together. If I refuse, they blow [shoot] me, innit. I pray twice a day: before I do crime, and after. I ask Allah for a blessing when I'm out on the street. Afterwards, I apologise to Allah for what I done."
Winston becomes angry when I show him the Brixton mosque's denunciation of his crew as "bogus Muslims", crushing their statement in his fist. "F***ing cheek!" he says. "Mocking us. There be retribution for this!"
Winston is now agitated again and he begins playing with his knives, laying them in patterns at his feet. "You lucky the other bruvs not here yet," he says. "They pick you up and throw you straight off the f***ing balcony."
One final question, I say. Where does your money go? "To the f***ing laundry, innit," he says, licking his teeth. Is there any connection between your gang and al Qaeda? He glares at me. "That's a deep piece of info. I support Bin Laden. I wouldn't ask that question, bruv - it's rude, it's dangerous, it's ..."
Time to leave. There are moments when words do not come easily to Winston, when he prefers to let his hands do the talking, and right now, they are being frighteningly expressive.
Look at http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/16372042?source=Evening%20Standard
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LuLu8769
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Posted: Sun Feb 6th, 2005 01:04 am |
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Dutch wrote: NiteHawk wrote: Dutch wrote: Actually, French research has shown that while some French Muslims are accepting radical Islam as their way of life, a much larger part of the young Muslim population throughout Europe is accepting secular lifestyles rapidly. Mosque-attendance is dropping, birth rates are dropping, mixed marriages are increasing. The birth rate in Turkey (1.98 children/woman) is not much different compared to other European countries like Iceland (1.93 children/woman) or Ireland (1.87 children/woman). In fact, Turkey has a lower birth rate than the US (2.07 children/woman). I think we are overexaggerating a bit.
Source: CIA Factbook
They'll eventually learn of the problem they have the hard way. The French always learn the hard way.
It's the "enemy within" stupid. Great campaign slogan!
If you think that an entire group of people called Muslims - which only major thing they share is their faith (or heritage) - is an "enemy within" ... I don't know whom I'm should be scared of more: those few fundamental Muslims or you.
I have to agree with you on that one about not all muslims being bad people. I have many muslim friends (most in egypt) loving good people, not radical. They do not look at the radical muslims/terrorists as muslim. They accuse them of misinterpreting the Q'ran and abusing its meaning and state quote a friend here "These people are not true muslim" Muslims are a peaceful people and should be allowed their religion, its the radicals that abuse it and misinterpret the Q'ran."
Sure, they slaughter a cow in the street (many people cringe) but do people also realize that that meat is donated to the poor on a holiday as arms for the poor and the slaughter is not only an offering but a kindness gesture for their neighbors. We dont have to believe in their Q'ran but giving the true muslims, good honest peace loving hard working people the respect they deserve as we expect from them when it comes to our Bible is something to think about.
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LuLu8769
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Posted: Sun Feb 6th, 2005 01:12 am |
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ANI wrote: I don't want to start an argument, but, honestly I think that the Liberal movement which has made it so that immigrants did not have to assimilate into the existing society is creating the real problem. This from an immigrant , if I had not had to learn English and the cultural habits around me ...I'm sure that I would not feel as much a part of this community and this culture and would probably feel somewhat suppressed. Really pisses me off when certain parts of california (some towns) 75 % of them dont speak any english or just dont care. Friend of mine moved out there and shes mexican. when she came here she couldnt speak english but she worked every day and learned rather fast, got a job and worked hard. when she moved to this place in cal, she said that now she understands why alot of people are so mad about the illegals, look down on mexicans and the souls who are a drain on the economy. she moved back here after 1 year. She couldnt even carry a conversation on with those people and said they looked down on her because she spoke english well, her children were clean (they got hand foot and mouth disease outside their place) she stated they went to the bathroom outside their homes (the men) and the sand was tainted with bacteria.
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LuLu8769
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Posted: Sun Feb 6th, 2005 01:13 am |
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| On that note, My only hang up with Bush is the border thing. Something needs to be done or this country is going to go to shi*.
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lasion2
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Posted: Sun Feb 6th, 2005 01:40 am |
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| see I don't understand that. Why can't Latinos, or anyone for that matter, immigrate here legally, set up shop, get their kids educated and improve their lot. You xenophobes miss the whole point. The Irish immigrated here and a lot of people thought it was going to put the country in the crapper...they were discriminated against, took crap jobs, worked their butts off and slowly climbed the ladder. Germans, Italians, Russians, Slavs, Asians all did the same thing. My ancestors did it. My guess is yours did too. Why not Latinos? Why do you think the fruits and opportunities of this country should only be available to rich, white, northern europeans?
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