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JP
Member/DJ
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 01:23 pm |
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Fear of hands n' treats: Both my (Shelter) dogs were afraid of taking treats out of anyones hands (including me). you could not stroke Cooper or touch him with out his desire to keep his distance. Mini was less apprehensive but she had her own way of expressing her fear and would bluff attack a stranger who put their 'open hand' out. this reaction is 99% of the time due to previous experience when hands had turned to weapons. some people have this method of raising & sweeping their open hands in a 'false smack' posture when a dog is in error.. the result is the dog cowers with tail between the legs.. some even less educated owners have used physical harm (hard smack) to show their puppy/dog who is boss, & the dog now sees only the hand/arm as a weapon. and we see the classic behavior either rolling onto their backs in a submissive display or cower away & showing teeth in a threat display. the reason for my dogs who came 8mths apart into the local shelter but seemed to show the same hand fear behavior of taking food/treats is based on the previous owner(s) use of coaxing their animal out of hiding after a shouting/false or real punishment and while giving the treat they start to raise their voice explaining"and don't do it again" and confusion starts to imprint itself in general terms to all things 'hands'. offering treats in order to capture or punish a puppy/dog is sadly very common and also mega bad practice.
Taking on a shelter animal with fear factors (as you will know 'Coyote') requires patience & constant reinforcement of trust which also requires some personal self restrain. this might sound restrictive.. but it actually creates a 'better person'. dogs with 'any' fear issue, relate both sound & our body language equally. this translates into controlling our everyday temper & daily life frustrations from becoming verbal. when this is forgotten, its guaranteed that your puppy/dog will be fixated on you or left the room/gone to his/her basket and in some sad extremes, loss of bladder control from perhaps, just shouting down the mobile phone at the bad salesman. (Mini) & cooper are super receptive to my vocal expression which keeps my self-control (anger management) in check to avoid their misdirected old fear from kicking in. I also present the 'back of my semi-closed hand' to Cooper before I start to stroke him & this is the least threatening 'hand posture' you can provide dogs & cats who generally fear hands. another important tip to hand contact is the minimum amount of eye contact made while presenting. if I have guests over I always give them a dog cookie to offer my guys. 70% of the time they still won't take the offering direct..(they take it very timidly & it drops to the floor.) but are satisfied to take from the floor (close to the hand that offers) I'm afraid recovery from mishandling can take months or years to fade in some dogs depending on the severity implanted.
more tips and therapy options are available on this subject..
Here is Mini & Cooper:
Last edited on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 10:27 am by JP
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Coyote
Member
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 05:23 pm |
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Mini sounds a lot like Jessie. Jessie does that bluff - she has learned that it works and keeps the unpleasant hands away. We don't know alot about Jessie's initial background. She was picked up as a stray in the rural part of Tennessee at about 9 mos of age. ur national breed rescue got her and she spent about 2 months I think, in foster care. No issues were apparent and I think we would have picked up on it. The only thing noted was she is reserved on initial meetings - that can be lack of socialization or breed characteristic or both. No growling or snapping however. Then she got adopted for 10 months during which she developed both the behavior and the phsyical problems (stress, lack of consistent leadership, lack of any bonding, smacking?). She was taken back by our organization and I agreed to foster her. Her body language is mixed and it's sad - she wants to be friendly, comes up to people acts friendly until they reach towards her - then the growling and moving away and very confused body language - it's like she is saying "I want to be friendly but I'm afraid". She will 99% likely stay with me - I'm worried that if she has trust issues then fostering her, and sending her off again will damage that ability to trust even more plus her behavior means she would have to go to an experienced home and they are few and far between. I have been holding off on total commitment for a month to see how she fits in with my 5 dogs (which include 4 bitches and those girls can be bitchy  ). The months almost at an end and though she has had some scuffles here and there, most seems to be ranking disputes at the lower end and possessive behavior around me or hubby (an annoying breed characteristic with these dogs) - but nothing serious. Plus she's soft enough to be able to verbally tell her to knock it off and then redirect her.
What I've done twice so far is have her meet select people, carefully - at home and at our training building. Only a couple of times so far and she has done ok - we don't push it, and we let her make the moves. I told the friend that visisted us to ignore her and especially don't reach for her or look directly at her, and gave him treats to toss to her. As she got more comfortable, she came up and sniffed him and examined him and took treats from his hand but would not allow petting (I had to keep reminding him not to try and pet her...grrr...people don't always listen!). Anyway, we ended at a successful point. The other friend that met her was very dog knowledgable (she's my "mentor") and knew how to assess and act around dogs with issues. She handled it perfectly. Met Jess, didn't push her or push into her space, gave her treats then we put Jess in a crate while we worked our other dogs. We got Jess out again after an hour and Jess initiated friendly behavior with my friend. A week later, they met again - and Jessie was great and came up for petting. I think slow and careful might turn her around as long as we don't let people push into her space or make her feel cornered.
That is a really good point about offering treats to capture/punish a dog - that never occured to me! And that might explain her really mixed behavior concerning hands reaching out to her with a treat and then trying to pet her (she anticipates being grabbed and punished). This will change how I will work with her. It's interesting - I help teach pet classes for our kennel club and there are several things we stress: never call a dog to "come" for punishment or for something unpleasant; always, when he comes encourage him all the way in petting and praising and treating so the dog associates "coming" with many good things; and when a dog does something bad - like stealing something - don't chase him down but rather teach him to trade objects for treats. I am going to add your point about using treats to lure and capture a dog for something unpleasant or punishment to my list of subjects - that is an easy human mistake to make. I think this could have happened to Jessie - she will steal things (puppy like) and one time in her previous home, she apparently stole a chocolate cake. That is quite dangerous for a dog, they called te vet, and they probably had to chase her down, and they did have to make her throw up and in vet notes they apparently told the vet that now she acted afraid of them.
It's sad though - it is so easy to damage a dog or cat's trust, and yet they can be so very forgiving. Sometimes it's ignorance (as I think it was in Jess' former home), sometimes it's willful abuse, sometimes bad breeding that makes an animal difficult to live with, sometimes a combination and with shelter dogs, you often don't know.
Anyway - sorry for the long post - I can talk about dogs endlessly.
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Coyote
Member
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 05:30 pm |
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There is another subject that might be good to talk about.....declawing cats.
I don't currently have cats - we lost our last one at 18, last year - but I never had to declaw them. I don't have the kind of furniture or carpeting that encourages clawing so it was never a problem for me. My co-worker is thinking of getting a kitten and the first thing she said was she wanted to declaw it. I would like to desuade her - I think it's terribly cruel unless it's a last resort to keep a cat in it's home.
What can a new kitten owner do to teach the right habits in the beginning and to stop problems later without resorting to de-clawing?
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JP
Member/DJ
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 06:23 pm |
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Coyote wrote: There is another subject that might be good to talk about.....declawing cats.
I don't currently have cats - we lost our last one at 18, last year - but I never had to declaw them. I don't have the kind of furniture or carpeting that encourages clawing so it was never a problem for me. My co-worker is thinking of getting a kitten and the first thing she said was she wanted to declaw it. I would like to desuade her - I think it's terribly cruel unless it's a last resort to keep a cat in it's home.
What can a new kitten owner do to teach the right habits in the beginning and to stop problems later without resorting to de-clawing?
This is an easy subject to answer if you consider why it is done. house proud people need to buy a stuffed toy. It's horrendous to contemplate owning a real animal who comes with claws & subjecting it to an immense amount of discomfort & suffering for the sake of furniture. the kitten will grow up always in danger of death if it climbs a tree/high place and needs its claws.. self grooming is also less efficient and cats like to stay in good-shape.
It's against the law to amputate (de-claw) cats in Holland but not in The USA (yet) my personal opinion is totally based on any cats welfare first & foremost.. so please advise them not to do this to their kitten.
A number of scratch posts scattered around her house will be used by her kitten & play/games around the posts will reinforce the idea that these posts are a 'scratch/stretch & play' area.
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BlueGTO
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 04:45 am |
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Coyote wrote: I am wondering if anyone out there has done clicker training with their pets? It's a lot of fun and great for behavioral modification. Jessie lost her adoptive home not only with the health issues, but due to some behavioral issues which became apparent only after she was adopted. It could well have been the home exacerbated an underlying weakness. She is very leery of strangers and especially being touched and especially in her own comfort zone where she tends to be a bit possessive of "her" person (not good, but typical herding dog b.s.) and she is fearful. She will wrinkle up her nose (the Ugly Face), and growl and airsnap. Not good for adoptability unless it's an experienced home. I don't think, in the ten months that she was adopted that she ever built up any trust or a bond with the family. I think she was more an accessory. At any rate we decided to try a program of clicker training to desensitize her to being touched. We touch her and click and then treat. We started at the rear, and gradually moved up. She is responding well - of course she doesn't mind being touched by me, but the idea is to get her to the point where you touch her and she doesn't even look to the hand but immediatly looks for the treat instead. It's fun - and seems to be working with no stress on her 
We are clicker training our boys. Our exotic cat is terrified of deep voices and so the behaviorist I am working with has my husband doing his training and he is responding well. We started the week after Thanksgiving and hubby is able to touch him these days. We click him for positive behaviors and only hubby is allowed to give treats...so he is known as the treat man. Oliver has gotten to where he runs to the back door as soon as he hears the garage open in the evenings
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TD
S. Moderator
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 05:27 am |
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| We use a squirt bottle when the dogs misbehave. The nice thing is, we don't even have to squirt them now - we can just say "do you want a squirt???" and they stop doing whatever they are doing. It's like counting to 3 with a child.
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JP
Member/DJ
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 05:01 pm |
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TD wrote: We use a squirt bottle when the dogs misbehave. The nice thing is, we don't even have to squirt them now - we can just say "do you want a squirt???" and they stop doing whatever they are doing. It's like counting to 3 with a child.
Vocal Shock Command: Interesting option.. and perfectly ok, as a learning tool so long as it is used the way you also applied. (hats off)
What I mean is: young+ dogs & also cats easily fixate on an object/smell/food & can ignore vocalisation as a normal pre-cursor warning.. when this happens it can be dangerous/irritating or just down and out.. naughty! the small jet of water from a plant spray bottle nozzle in combination with an 'explicit command' (or) what I use.. 'a low growl..' will quickly implant & teach your sound/command of pre-warning to your learning four footer.
Please never use this command tool in "vocal silence"! its bad for your animals nerves and provides zero purpose.. (just like us.. if someone touches our shoulder in silence from behind..WE FREAK!) The water jet becomes an extension of your vocal/presence when you combine vocal-shock-therapy. (like us.. we still jump! but we know from what direction)
You will always know when this warning command technique has succeeded when your 4 footer responds to just your vocal 'warning' 1st time out. So,..
The (1st) first time you start this tool TD has very kindly introduced to this topic.. remember to have your vocal weapon in your hand 'lock n' loaded' and start with your "NOOO! or "HEEEEY" or "GROWL".. (they ignore you) Squeeze your trigger and send your 'command'. (they jump/react & look at you) please make nothing more than 'eye contact' and then continue with what your doing. yep.. keep them in the corner of your vision.. (that rubbish bag.. birthday cake.. is gold)
The (2nd) second time you use your vocal tool, remember to repeat steps one. no need to be cruel.. lock and load.. send a 'Dry' command.. (they are back in the rubbish bin.. irritating your other cat/dog.. chewing your wife's favorite shoes..? and still they ignore your initial command)
The (3rd) third time you use your vocal tool after following step 2. send a 'Dry command'.. (they just cant resist the behavior you find dangerous/anti social/a big no no, and ignore your vocal command) continue the therapy..
I know its possible that it can take only one 'shock-command' to implant itself.. in dogs & cats. the next time you send that particular 'DRY' warning command they might immediately either fixate on you or stop/freak and move away. "vocal command" is not a physical thing.. but we sometimes have to teach this to our four footed friends.. and this is why only eye contact or even nonchalant message on its own.. is the fundamental communication method. many puppies/young will look for reassurance after a 'I've been subjected too shock incident'.. they will hang around your feet or look for your new found friendship.. give it. cats will be more subjective.. you must wait for them to come to you.. they will get over the moment, but not the command sound in their own time.. if you look for them they will constitute this as a hunt.. relax.. command therapy in cats is just more subtle.. (the impact is more sensitive.. so cats recover differently and hate water & will find a private place to 'clean up & adjust' & need space.. and then will return to be loved..
Important note: Older 4 Footers should be regarded as Shock Free. old animals can learn tricks.. stress/shock is not one of them.
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Coyote
Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 06:18 pm |
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That's a great article JP! I will have to save it. I've used a squirt bottle occassionally and for a very specific problem: possessiveness of me as a "resource". When I'm sitting reading, or sitting here at the computer one or more dogs start to congregate. My boy, Cowboy doesn't get snarky. But 3 of my girls do and will try to drive each other away leading to occassioinal fights. I have used the squirt bottle - but not paired with a verbal...which in the long run means I think, that I would always be dependent on having a squirt bottle handy to stop the behavior right?
I like your choice of a low "growl" because that really is a very effective warning that is understandable to dogs. Sometimes we forget and let our voices rise and get angry and try to outshout the dog but often that either totally intimidates and confuses the animal or - escelates the confrontation (ie - she's barking so I'll bark even more). In the end the dog learns nothing except that he's made you angry.
I have one dog is very very reactive and somewhat fearful of other dogs (she's another foster I couldn't place). It doesn't take much to get her started and it doesn't take much for her to escalate to the point where she is in a frenzy. I've found the best way to deal with her is to physically stand between her and the stimulus and quietly - in a low measured tone - tell her to lie down (this is a command she knows well and has had lots of reward for). When she does, she gets lots of calm praise - very calm, and lies there for a minute, and then I call her to the treat jar and she gets a treat. It seems to work well - as long as I remember to control my own temper and annoyance and keep my voice quiet and low.
One of my hobbies is sheep dog work, and I took one of my dogs to a clinic given by someone who's trained a lot of sheep dogs. He spent the first portion of the clinic doing what he called "ground work" - he talked about relationship, leadership, and such with the dog and also about how dogs naturally communicate with each other. When a dog is warning another dog typically they initiate eye contact and stare first. If that doesn't work they give a low growl. If that doesn't work they follow up with a physical correction. In sheep dog work, because the dogs are in such drive with the stock - people tend to use physical corrections more because the stock must be kept safe from the excited dog. But - what this clinician had us do was much more fair to the dog then simply correcting the dog - and they responded to the growl much better then to a person yelling and screaming (which is also done a lot in some schools of sheep dog work). The end result was a dog that worked much more quietly and confidently - and if for example, he cut in too close and didn't keep his distnce - a stare and a low growl and the dog widened out.
Anyway, I will add the verbal to the squirt from now on
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Coyote
Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 06:22 pm |
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JP wrote: Important note: Older 4 Footers should be regarded as Shock Free. old animals can learn tricks.. stress/shock is not one of them.
My oldest dog is 14 - she's earned the right to do what she wants. She doesn't hear or see so well either. She's a fussy old lady, just like a person - she fusses if one of the other dogs is on "her" bed (not that there is a shortage of dog beds) so I have to get up and encourage it to move so she can have "her" bed.
She's earned it
I love my old animals, they ask for so little.
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Coyote
Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 06:24 pm |
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BlueGTO wrote: We are clicker training our boys. Our exotic cat is terrified of deep voices and so the behaviorist I am working with has my husband doing his training and he is responding well. We started the week after Thanksgiving and hubby is able to touch him these days. We click him for positive behaviors and only hubby is allowed to give treats...so he is known as the treat man. Oliver has gotten to where he runs to the back door as soon as he hears the garage open in the evenings
I never tried the clicker with my cats - I always went along with the thought that cats are cats - you don't train them...so I accepted the fact that they would jump on the counters and just pick them up and move them. I think when I get cats again, I will do it differently.
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Coyote
Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 06:34 pm |
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JP wrote: Coyote wrote: There is another subject that might be good to talk about.....declawing cats.
I don't currently have cats - we lost our last one at 18, last year - but I never had to declaw them. I don't have the kind of furniture or carpeting that encourages clawing so it was never a problem for me. My co-worker is thinking of getting a kitten and the first thing she said was she wanted to declaw it. I would like to desuade her - I think it's terribly cruel unless it's a last resort to keep a cat in it's home.
What can a new kitten owner do to teach the right habits in the beginning and to stop problems later without resorting to de-clawing?
This is an easy subject to answer if you consider why it is done. house proud people need to buy a stuffed toy. It's horrendous to contemplate owning a real animal who comes with claws & subjecting it to an immense amount of discomfort & suffering for the sake of furniture. the kitten will grow up always in danger of death if it climbs a tree/high place and needs its claws.. self grooming is also less efficient and cats like to stay in good-shape.
It's against the law to amputate (de-claw) cats in Holland but not in The USA (yet) my personal opinion is totally based on any cats welfare first & foremost.. so please advise them not to do this to their kitten.
A number of scratch posts scattered around her house will be used by her kitten & play/games around the posts will reinforce the idea that these posts are a 'scratch/stretch & play' area.
I told her that declawing is not an "easy" surgery like neutering - that it's the equivelent of amputing the first joints of each of your fingers. She seemed pretty shocked - I don't think she had realized that. I agree - if you get an animal, you do so knowing that there are things that come with it - like fur, shedding, scratching, accidents, barfing. If you can't deal with those things - you don't get a living creature that depends on you to look out for it. My cats never scratched furniture - they scratched some wood in a doorway, and they had scratching surfaces. I kept their nails trimmed also (easy to do). My dogs are actually more destructive then the cats. But you live with it - I sweep often because there is always hair, I have washable throws on my furnature because I do allow them on furniture (as long as they get off when I tell them to) and we have lots of washable dog beds around the house for them.
I admire the EU for it's animal welfare policies. I would like to see an end to docking and cropping too and better spay/neuter policies. Our shelters here are still way too full and far too many animals are euthanized simply for being unwanted.
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JP
Member/DJ
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 07:10 pm |
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BlueGTO wrote: Coyote wrote: I am wondering if anyone out there has done clicker training with their pets? It's a lot of fun and great for behavioral modification. Jessie lost her adoptive home not only with the health issues, but due to some behavioral issues which became apparent only after she was adopted. It could well have been the home exacerbated an underlying weakness. She is very leery of strangers and especially being touched and especially in her own comfort zone where she tends to be a bit possessive of "her" person (not good, but typical herding dog b.s.) and she is fearful. She will wrinkle up her nose (the Ugly Face), and growl and airsnap. Not good for adoptability unless it's an experienced home. I don't think, in the ten months that she was adopted that she ever built up any trust or a bond with the family. I think she was more an accessory. At any rate we decided to try a program of clicker training to desensitize her to being touched. We touch her and click and then treat. We started at the rear, and gradually moved up. She is responding well - of course she doesn't mind being touched by me, but the idea is to get her to the point where you touch her and she doesn't even look to the hand but immediatly looks for the treat instead. It's fun - and seems to be working with no stress on her
We are clicker training our boys. Our exotic cat is terrified of deep voices and so the behaviorist I am working with has my husband doing his training and he is responding well. We started the week after Thanksgiving and hubby is able to touch him these days. We click him for positive behaviors and only hubby is allowed to give treats...so he is known as the treat man. Oliver has gotten to where he runs to the back door as soon as he hears the garage open in the evenings J clicking bump..
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TD
S. Moderator
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 09:28 pm |
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| The squirt bottle works remarkably well on my kids too.
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BlueGTO
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 11:50 pm |
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Coyote wrote: JP wrote: Coyote wrote:
I told her that declawing is not an "easy" surgery like neutering - that it's the equivelent of amputing the first joints of each of your fingers. She seemed pretty shocked - I don't think she had realized that. I agree - if you get an animal, you do so knowing that there are things that come with it - like fur, shedding, scratching, accidents, barfing. If you can't deal with those things - you don't get a living creature that depends on you to look out for it. My cats never scratched furniture - they scratched some wood in a doorway, and they had scratching surfaces. I kept their nails trimmed also (easy to do). My dogs are actually more destructive then the cats. But you live with it - I sweep often because there is always hair, I have washable throws on my furnature because I do allow them on furniture (as long as they get off when I tell them to) and we have lots of washable dog beds around the house for them.
I admire the EU for it's animal welfare policies. I would like to see an end to docking and cropping too and better spay/neuter policies. Our shelters here are still way too full and far too many animals are euthanized simply for being unwanted.
We bought a 71" cat tree for our boys and have yet to really have a scratching problem. I've heard that declawing your cats can cause litterbox issues, behavior issues (they're more likely to use teeth), and arthritis because they walk on the back so ftheir feet instead of fronts like a normal cat. Both of our boys love to climb (they're cats so duh) and they are always running up the side of the cat tree and sleeping on the top platform. We are looking at getting a second one that is larger just so they can have fun. We only paid $120 for our cat tree (cheaper than a declaw surgery i'm sure) and we have little posts as well as flat scratchy surfaces and they do fine. I also have a microfiber couch and so they are not terribly interested in sharpening claws on that.
Adam West has grown quite a bit since this picture...he was only like 4 months old lol. This cat tree is withstanding the weight of 2 crazy full grown normal cat sized cats pretty well. Oliver is still a kitten, but weighs over 12lbs at this point and Adam West weighs 10lbs and it is a little wobbly, but once tightened works great again.
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BlueGTO
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 11:54 pm |
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Coyote wrote: BlueGTO wrote: We are clicker training our boys. Our exotic cat is terrified of deep voices and so the behaviorist I am working with has my husband doing his training and he is responding well. We started the week after Thanksgiving and hubby is able to touch him these days. We click him for positive behaviors and only hubby is allowed to give treats...so he is known as the treat man. Oliver has gotten to where he runs to the back door as soon as he hears the garage open in the evenings
I never tried the clicker with my cats - I always went along with the thought that cats are cats - you don't train them...so I accepted the fact that they would jump on the counters and just pick them up and move them. I think when I get cats again, I will do it differently.
It mostly just helps him bond and learn to trust my husband because he is so scared of him. Normally, I wouldn't care if my cat can shake hands or whatever or not. Our behaviorist is hearing impaired and so she has an alarm on her keys so that they will retrieve them when she loses them. It's kind of amazing that a cat will do that.
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Coyote
Member
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 01:55 am |
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BlueGTO wrote: We bought a 71" cat tree for our boys and have yet to really have a scratching problem. I've heard that declawing your cats can cause litterbox issues, behavior issues (they're more likely to use teeth), and arthritis because they walk on the back so ftheir feet instead of fronts like a normal cat. Both of our boys love to climb (they're cats so duh) and they are always running up the side of the cat tree and sleeping on the top platform. We are looking at getting a second one that is larger just so they can have fun. We only paid $120 for our cat tree (cheaper than a declaw surgery i'm sure) and we have little posts as well as flat scratchy surfaces and they do fine. I also have a microfiber couch and so they are not terribly interested in sharpening claws on that.
Adam West has grown quite a bit since this picture...he was only like 4 months old lol. This cat tree is withstanding the weight of 2 crazy full grown normal cat sized cats pretty well. Oliver is still a kitten, but weighs over 12lbs at this point and Adam West weighs 10lbs and it is a little wobbly, but once tightened works great again.
Those a great for cats! I would definately get something like that. When my cats were young, we lived in an A-frame sort of house that was very open with beams, planks and shelving criss crossing the open ceiling. Hard to explain but it gave the cats a lot vertical space to explore as well. I put cat baskets on some of the shelves and they could cross from one loft to another via the planks or shelves. They loved it.
Have you ever seen this book? These people did some neat carpentry and stuff for their cats.
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JP
Member/DJ
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 09:00 am |
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Coyote wrote: That's a great article JP! I will have to save it. I've used a squirt bottle occassionally and for a very specific problem: possessiveness of me as a "resource". When I'm sitting reading, or sitting here at the computer one or more dogs start to congregate. My boy, Cowboy doesn't get snarky. But 3 of my girls do and will try to drive each other away leading to occassioinal fights. I have used the squirt bottle - but not paired with a verbal...which in the long run means I think, that I would always be dependent on having a squirt bottle handy to stop the behavior right?
I like your choice of a low "growl" because that really is a very effective warning that is understandable to dogs. Sometimes we forget and let our voices rise and get angry and try to outshout the dog but often that either totally intimidates and confuses the animal or - escelates the confrontation (ie - she's barking so I'll bark even more). In the end the dog learns nothing except that he's made you angry.
I have one dog is very very reactive and somewhat fearful of other dogs (she's another foster I couldn't place). It doesn't take much to get her started and it doesn't take much for her to escalate to the point where she is in a frenzy. I've found the best way to deal with her is to physically stand between her and the stimulus and quietly - in a low measured tone - tell her to lie down (this is a command she knows well and has had lots of reward for). When she does, she gets lots of calm praise - very calm, and lies there for a minute, and then I call her to the treat jar and she gets a treat. It seems to work well - as long as I remember to control my own temper and annoyance and keep my voice quiet and low.
One of my hobbies is sheep dog work, and I took one of my dogs to a clinic given by someone who's trained a lot of sheep dogs. He spent the first portion of the clinic doing what he called "ground work" - he talked about relationship, leadership, and such with the dog and also about how dogs naturally communicate with each other. When a dog is warning another dog typically they initiate eye contact and stare first. If that doesn't work they give a low growl. If that doesn't work they follow up with a physical correction. In sheep dog work, because the dogs are in such drive with the stock - people tend to use physical corrections more because the stock must be kept safe from the excited dog. But - what this clinician had us do was much more fair to the dog then simply correcting the dog - and they responded to the growl much better then to a person yelling and screaming (which is also done a lot in some schools of sheep dog work). The end result was a dog that worked much more quietly and confidently - and if for example, he cut in too close and didn't keep his distnce - a stare and a low growl and the dog widened out.
Anyway, I will add the verbal to the squirt from now on
It nice to realize that your teaching/training sheep/cattle dogs & people.. I'm a city boy and deal almost exclusively with town animals.. so I have zero hands on experience with this very interesting & rewarding animal-human interaction. (a little envy on my part..)
Extra note: Please 'save' or pass on anything you find of value within Pets Square. I created this topic as a reference for present & future guests/members to use. you might notice I seem to write the blatantly obvious & give examples that perhaps the person I'm replying to is fully aware. the info is given this way so that other people with similar behavior/medical pet issues will be able to quickly relate. (please forgive this folks.. )
Here is my Mini:
Last edited on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 10:23 am by JP
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JP
Member/DJ
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 09:19 am |
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BlueGTO wrote: Coyote wrote: JP wrote: Coyote wrote:
I told her that declawing is not an "easy" surgery like neutering - that it's the equivelent of amputing the first joints of each of your fingers. She seemed pretty shocked - I don't think she had realized that. I agree - if you get an animal, you do so knowing that there are things that come with it - like fur, shedding, scratching, accidents, barfing. If you can't deal with those things - you don't get a living creature that depends on you to look out for it. My cats never scratched furniture - they scratched some wood in a doorway, and they had scratching surfaces. I kept their nails trimmed also (easy to do). My dogs are actually more destructive then the cats. But you live with it - I sweep often because there is always hair, I have washable throws on my furnature because I do allow them on furniture (as long as they get off when I tell them to) and we have lots of washable dog beds around the house for them.
I admire the EU for it's animal welfare policies. I would like to see an end to docking and cropping too and better spay/neuter policies. Our shelters here are still way too full and far too many animals are euthanized simply for being unwanted.
We bought a 71" cat tree for our boys and have yet to really have a scratching problem. I've heard that declawing your cats can cause litterbox issues, behavior issues (they're more likely to use teeth), and arthritis because they walk on the back so ftheir feet instead of fronts like a normal cat. Both of our boys love to climb (they're cats so duh) and they are always running up the side of the cat tree and sleeping on the top platform. We are looking at getting a second one that is larger just so they can have fun. We only paid $120 for our cat tree (cheaper than a declaw surgery i'm sure) and we have little posts as well as flat scratchy surfaces and they do fine. I also have a microfiber couch and so they are not terribly interested in sharpening claws on that.
Adam West has grown quite a bit since this picture...he was only like 4 months old lol. This cat tree is withstanding the weight of 2 crazy full grown normal cat sized cats pretty well. Oliver is still a kitten, but weighs over 12lbs at this point and Adam West weighs 10lbs and it is a little wobbly, but once tightened works great again. These tower scratch posts are awesome.. but I would strongly recommend you place the tower next to a wall & fix it too the wall. a small ring fitting in the wall and a few tie-rips joined together & looped around one of the tower legs will keep it static. the cats will have even more fun with this new found stability.. and the potential for damage to either living room possessions or a cat caught under this falling tower will be diminished.. (I'm sorry to say that cats have been hurt by these towers falling)
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Coyote
Member
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 04:41 pm |
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JP wrote: It nice to realize that your teaching/training sheep/cattle dogs & people.. I'm a city boy and deal almost exclusively with town animals.. so I have zero hands on experience with this very interesting & rewarding animal-human interaction. (a little envy on my part..)
Extra note: Please 'save' or pass on anything you find of value within Pets Square. I created this topic as a reference for present & future guests/members to use. you might notice I seem to write the blatantly obvious & give examples that perhaps the person I'm replying to is fully aware. the info is given this way so that other people with similar behavior/medical pet issues will be able to quickly relate. (please forgive this folks..)
Here is my Mini:
She's adorable! She's like Toto in the Wizard of Oz Your two pups look so similar -they could almost be littermates Looking at that face, it's hard to believe some one would abuse her, people are unbelievable sometimes.
I do the sheepdog work as a hobby, but I have to go elsewhere to do it as I don't have sheep (yet) and with only 2 acres, I'm not sure I can. I started because I got a dog that was out of working lines and I felt I owed it to him to do something with it. Now we are both badly addicted (so much so I'm wondering if I can fit mini sheep on my mini farm?).
Dog breaking sheep is kind of interesting - it's not something I've actually done, but the principle is not to different from any other pet. People tend to think that working sheep with dogs means allowing a dog to chase them around the pasture but it isn't and any good stockman would never allow his stock to be abused that way. The sheep have to be taught to move off the dog's presence and they also learn that the shepherd equals safety and the learn to trust the shepherd to keep the dog off them. If the dog repeatedly crashes the sheep they sour - they don't trust you and they certainly don't trust the dog. That's when they start standing up to the dog because they have no choice - moving away doesn't give them safety and you aren't doing your job to keep them safe as long as they move off the dog.
Anyway - if you ever get a chance to watch it, it can be quite interesting to watch the subtle interplay between sheep/dog/human and you can see it's the dog's presence (pressure) that moves the sheep, not his teeth, and the shepherd too can apply pressure simply by his physical position in relation to the dog and the stock, and they respond to that. You can play around with "pressure" even with pets. Standing straight up and moving into a dog's "space" puts a subtle pressure on the dog and usually makes him back off - stepping back as soon as he backs off removes the pressure and simultaniously lets him know he did the right thing by backing off because the pressure is removed.
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JP
Member/DJ
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 06:57 pm |
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Coyote wrote: JP wrote: It nice to realize that your teaching/training sheep/cattle dogs & people.. I'm a city boy and deal almost exclusively with town animals.. so I have zero hands on experience with this very interesting & rewarding animal-human interaction. (a little envy on my part..)
Extra note: Please 'save' or pass on anything you find of value within Pets Square. I created this topic as a reference for present & future guests/members to use. you might notice I seem to write the blatantly obvious & give examples that perhaps the person I'm replying to is fully aware. the info is given this way so that other people with similar behavior/medical pet issues will be able to quickly relate. (please forgive this folks..)
Here is my Mini:
She's adorable! She's like Toto in the Wizard of Oz Your two pups look so similar -they could almost be littermates Looking at that face, it's hard to believe some one would abuse her, people are unbelievable sometimes.
I do the sheepdog work as a hobby, but I have to go elsewhere to do it as I don't have sheep (yet) and with only 2 acres, I'm not sure I can. I started because I got a dog that was out of working lines and I felt I owed it to him to do something with it. Now we are both badly addicted (so much so I'm wondering if I can fit mini sheep on my mini farm?).
Dog breaking sheep is kind of interesting - it's not something I've actually done, but the principle is not to different from any other pet. People tend to think that working sheep with dogs means allowing a dog to chase them around the pasture but it isn't and any good stockman would never allow his stock to be abused that way. The sheep have to be taught to move off the dog's presence and they also learn that the shepherd equals safety and the learn to trust the shepherd to keep the dog off them. If the dog repeatedly crashes the sheep they sour - they don't trust you and they certainly don't trust the dog. That's when they start standing up to the dog because they have no choice - moving away doesn't give them safety and you aren't doing your job to keep them safe as long as they move off the dog.
Anyway - if you ever get a chance to watch it, it can be quite interesting to watch the subtle interplay between sheep/dog/human and you can see it's the dog's presence (pressure) that moves the sheep, not his teeth, and the shepherd too can apply pressure simply by his physical position in relation to the dog and the stock, and they respond to that. You can play around with "pressure" even with pets. Standing straight up and moving into a dog's "space" puts a subtle pressure on the dog and usually makes him back off - stepping back as soon as he backs off removes the pressure and simultaniously lets him know he did the right thing by backing off because the pressure is removed.
Dog trials is available via the BBC which we get via cable (BBC2).. I have trainer friends who are dutch judges within this sport, but I just love the incredible interaction displayed that can prove to any 'perspective' dog owner that they 'just want to please given the chance'.
Mans best friend is in full display in this ancient relationship between us humans & a working dog..![[love]](/forums/themes/default/love003.gif)
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