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stevecanuck
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Posted: Sun Jul 26th, 2009 01:43 am |
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Muslims are filling the airwaves with the lie that honour killings are in no way scantioned by Islam. Perhaps they haven't read Surah 18, or perhaps they're just telling yet another lie to try to shoehorn 7th century barbarism into 21st century secularism.
Surah 18 tells the story of Moses as he meets a man who has been given special knowledge from god his own self. Moses asks the man if he can tag along with him to learn what god has imparted to him. The man encounters a youth who he kills for no apparent reason, causing Moses to object. The man explains that he killed the youth because he was going to become a rebellious infidel and shame his parents.
How is that not an honour killing? It serves double duty as it not only sanctions the killing of a disobedient child, but also one who dares to leave Islam.
Do you feel the peace and love yet?
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 02:58 am |
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stevecanuck wrote: Muslims are filling the airwaves with the lie that honour killings are in no way scantioned by Islam. Perhaps they haven't read Surah 18, or perhaps they're just telling yet another lie to try to shoehorn 7th century barbarism into 21st century secularism.
Surah 18 tells the story of Moses as he meets a man who has been given special knowledge from god his own self. Moses asks the man if he can tag along with him to learn what god has imparted to him. The man encounters a youth who he kills for no apparent reason, causing Moses to object. The man explains that he killed the youth because he was going to become a rebellious infidel and shame his parents.
How is that not an honour killing? It serves double duty as it not only sanctions the killing of a disobedient child, but also one who dares to leave Islam.
Do you feel the peace and love yet?
Steve, you're going to have to do a little better than this to smear the world's one billion Muslims simply because they read the same book.
Clearly you've never read the Bible which not only sanctions but lays down as lay the killing of women who dare sleep with anyone other than their husbands. You also might know that in some Roman Catholic countries this has been used as a successful defense in court for men who kill their wives.
And which god was it that turned Lots wife into a pillar of salt because she looked back at the destruction of Sodom and Gommarah when that particular god told her not to? Hmmm....
You're not an idiot, Steve, but when you make posts like this to prove that Muslims are evil, you do look pretty slow.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 03:20 am |
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here's a sample of Christian charity and good will towards women taken from Leviticus. Wonder how many Christians have proved their devoutness by, for example, stoning women to death.? Applying the same logic Steve uses to defame all Muslims, the answer would be every single one. Feel the hypocrisy yet?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/wom_list.html
A few lovely examples
A priest's daughter who "plays the whore" is to be burned to death. 21:9
Women are dirty and sinful after childbirth, so God prescribes rituals for their purification. If a boy is born, the mother is unclean for 7 days and must be purified for 33 days; but if a girl is born, the mother is unclean for 14 days and be purified for 66 days. This is because, in the eyes of God, girls are twice as dirty as boys. 12:1-5
If a man has sex with an engaged slave woman, scourge the woman, but don't punish the man. (Even if he raped her?) 19:20-22
This is, btw, just a tiny fragment of the mysogyny for which the bible is famous. Course there are no examples of these kind of Christians in Canada. Or are there? Well, there is the case of the Christians at Bountiful who used the bible to rationalize raping underage girls for example. And fo course there is the Christian fundamentalist group Focus on Family that has lobbied to have women's rights annuled in Canada and the US.
And here are some quotes from some well known tolerant loving and very influential Christians to mull over.
“I don’t know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.”
— President George H.W. Bush
“I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Almighty Creator. By fighting the Jews, I am doing the Lord’s work.”
— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
“The National Government will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life.”
— Adolf Hitler, Berlin, 1933, first radio address after coming to power
“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . We need believing people.”
— Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933
“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”
— Adolf Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941.
“Those who control what young people are taught, and what they experience — what they see, hear, think, and believe — will determine the future course for the nation.”
— James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family
“With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew.” — Bailey Smith, Christian Coalition
“AIDS is not just God’s punishment for homosexuals; it is God’s punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.”
— Reverend Jerry Falwell
“The Bible is the supreme law that all governments must obey.”
— Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue
“I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good — Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty. We are called by God to conquer this country.”
— Randall Terry
“The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.”
— Reverend Pat Robertson
“[Since 9/11] I am often asked if I still think we should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity. The answer is: Now more than ever!”
— Ann Coulter
“God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ‘Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’”
— Ann Coulter, on Hannity & Colmes, 6/20/01
Of course we could also mention the killing of abortion doctors done by Christian religious zealots in Canada and the US or Timothy McViegh, the famous "Christian terrorist" who showed his great Christian tendencies by sending several hundred people, including children, to meet their maker in his own little religious war
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Dr B
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 06:03 am |
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It's sad you guys have to kill each other to try to get some honor.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 03:48 pm |
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Onwar, both of your responses are similar to the type I frequently get, so they're worth a detailed answer.
First is the statement, "smear the world's one billion Muslims simply because they read the same book". The western world makes the huge mistake of thinking the quran is "just a book", or "Islam is just another religion". There's so much more to it. Having lived with Muslims for 7 years, I know they eat, live, sleep, and breathe Islam. Please consider a few points:
- Every response you get is a religious one. "How are you?" gets "alhumdulillah", "I'll see you tomorrow" gets "ensha'allah".
- Most of my coworkers had several quotes from the quran pinned to their cubical walls rather than pictures of their families.
- There are 99 ways to name a boy "servant of god", and a great many have this name. Every name that begins with "abd" (abdullah, abdul rahman) is one of these. Then there are names that end with ad-deen (of the faith), such as ala' ad-deen, which we mispronounce as Aladin, and saif ad-deen (sword of the faith - now there's a peaceful name for you).
- Even some companies' letterhead starts with the bismallah.
- Muslim dominated governments use the bismallah on all correspondence.
- We were never out of earshot of the call to prayer from several mosques at one time.
- Friday morning services are blared from loud-speakers, and you can forget sleeping in that day if you're too close to a mosque.
- Work is interrupted 3 times a day for the prayers that occur during work hours.
- Our Egyptian coworkers said no thanks to our suggestion that we have a picnic day with them so our families could get together. They didn't want to subject their wives and kids to a day spent with infidels.
- When I asked a coworker why I never heard a single "Merry Christmas" from them in 7 years, he told me that they don't congratulate people for blasphemy.
- A coworker told me he admired Hitler for what he did to the Jews, and I know he represented the majority view.
The quran teaches apartheid and Muslim superiority in all facets of life and belief, and they live it.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 04:04 pm |
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The second response is to compare Islamic hatred to Christian hatred.
To what end? How does that in any way mitigate or change anything said about Islam?
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 04:52 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: The second response is to compare Islamic hatred to Christian hatred.
To what end? How does that in any way mitigate or change anything said about Islam?
You're still missing the point, SC. I'll put it simply.
You're wrong when you imply that all Muslims understand the contents of the Qu'ran in exactly the same way and take everything in it literally. There is no question that factions of Muslims have used the Qu'ran to repress and commit acts of violence believing that they have the Qu'ran on their side.
But if all Muslims interpreted the Qu'ran the same way the Taliban do for example, you and I would have drawn our last breath long ago.
It's exactly the same way with the bible. You don't have to look far to find people who believe in it word for word. And there are Christians who have pointed to the bible to justify their despicable acts.
As for your Egyptian experience, so what? Why shouldn't these people be as devout as they chose to be (which is not the case with all Muslims, btw.) Does it bother you that you're excluded? Now you know how millions of non-Christians have felt in countries that overwhelmingly Christian.
And whatever horrors have been perpetrated in the name of Mohammed, they don't come even close to those done in the name of Jesus and the bible and never will.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 09:43 pm |
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http://newshopper.sulekha.com/news/possessed-man-kills-family-himself-crime-shocks-canada.htm
Funny thing. I remember hearing about this killing at the time and nobody said a word about the guy's religion and whether or not it was an honour killing. But because someone is a Muslim, the motivation to kill their family must stem from a religious motivation based on...what? That the police have decided it's an honour killing? Well, that's good enough for some I guess.
You know ,one of the really sad things about this recent tragedy is that no one really seems to give a shi* that these women were killed. It's more about the hysteria around the notion of "honour killing" and people gloating becuase it apparently proves their beliefs about Muslims. Of course, Canadian Muslims would have to go a long, long way to rack up the death toll of women that white, non Muslim Canadian men have achieved, guys like Marc Lepine, Clifford Olsen and Robert Picton. But the fact that this recent killing involves a Muslim man makes it something beyond merely killing women, right?
Last edited on Thu Jul 30th, 2009 09:45 pm by onwaranupwar
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Ae
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 09:56 pm |
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onwaranupwar wrote: stevecanuck wrote: Muslims are filling the airwaves with the lie that honour killings are in no way scantioned by Islam. Perhaps they haven't read Surah 18, or perhaps they're just telling yet another lie to try to shoehorn 7th century barbarism into 21st century secularism.
Surah 18 tells the story of Moses as he meets a man who has been given special knowledge from god his own self. Moses asks the man if he can tag along with him to learn what god has imparted to him. The man encounters a youth who he kills for no apparent reason, causing Moses to object. The man explains that he killed the youth because he was going to become a rebellious infidel and shame his parents.
How is that not an honour killing? It serves double duty as it not only sanctions the killing of a disobedient child, but also one who dares to leave Islam.
Do you feel the peace and love yet?
Steve, you're going to have to do a little better than this to smear the world's one billion Muslims simply because they read the same book.
Clearly you've never read the Bible which not only sanctions but lays down as lay the killing of women who dare sleep with anyone other than their husbands. You also might know that in some Roman Catholic countries this has been used as a successful defense in court for men who kill their wives.
And which god was it that turned Lots wife into a pillar of salt because she looked back at the destruction of Sodom and Gommarah when that particular god told her not to? Hmmm....
You're not an idiot, Steve, but when you make posts like this to prove that Muslims are evil, you do look pretty slow.
Sorry, you can't really claim that for Christians as a whole - first of all, most of their current societies do not do these things. Secondly, they can all claim to have a permenant "Get Out of Leviticus and Deuteronomy Free" Card.
Pointing out similarities in belief will help your cause - but you are very persistent to the point of Christian hate and you push it at people who aren't Christian.....like the atheist and the pagan should be required to explain these things to you.
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Ae
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 10:00 pm |
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onwaranupwar wrote:
http://newshopper.sulekha.com/news/possessed-man-kills-family-himself-crime-shocks-canada.htm
Funny thing. I remember hearing about this killing at the time and nobody said a word about the guy's religion and whether or not it was an honour killing. But because someone is a Muslim, the motivation to kill their family must stem from a religious motivation based on...what? That the police have decided it's an honour killing? Well, that's good enough for some I guess.
You know ,one of the really sad things about this recent tragedy is that no one really seems to give a shi* that these women were killed. It's more about the hysteria around the notion of "honour killing" and people gloating becuase it apparently proves their beliefs about Muslims. Of course, Canadian Muslims would have to go a long, long way to rack up the death toll of women that white, non Muslim Canadian men have achieved, guys like Marc Lepine, Clifford Olsen and Robert Picton. But the fact that this recent killing involves a Muslim man makes it something beyond merely killing women, right?
His wife was going to leave him. He killed his three girls for honour.
And you're busy saying how Christians are worse and these people are misunderstood.
I know that willingness to defend the "underdog" but you should evaluate it in yourself on occassion to make sure it isn't over taking you in a differently biased position. "the opposite" isn't necessarily the "better" position.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 10:03 pm |
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Ae wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: stevecanuck wrote: Muslims are filling the airwaves with the lie that honour killings are in no way scantioned by Islam. Perhaps they haven't read Surah 18, or perhaps they're just telling yet another lie to try to shoehorn 7th century barbarism into 21st century secularism.
Surah 18 tells the story of Moses as he meets a man who has been given special knowledge from god his own self. Moses asks the man if he can tag along with him to learn what god has imparted to him. The man encounters a youth who he kills for no apparent reason, causing Moses to object. The man explains that he killed the youth because he was going to become a rebellious infidel and shame his parents.
How is that not an honour killing? It serves double duty as it not only sanctions the killing of a disobedient child, but also one who dares to leave Islam.
Do you feel the peace and love yet?
Steve, you're going to have to do a little better than this to smear the world's one billion Muslims simply because they read the same book.
Clearly you've never read the Bible which not only sanctions but lays down as lay the killing of women who dare sleep with anyone other than their husbands. You also might know that in some Roman Catholic countries this has been used as a successful defense in court for men who kill their wives.
And which god was it that turned Lots wife into a pillar of salt because she looked back at the destruction of Sodom and Gommarah when that particular god told her not to? Hmmm....
You're not an idiot, Steve, but when you make posts like this to prove that Muslims are evil, you do look pretty slow.
Sorry, you can't really claim that for Christians as a whole - first of all, most of their current societies do not do these things. Secondly, they can all claim to have a permenant "Get Out of Leviticus and Deuteronomy Free" Card.
You've made my point for me, AE. Most Christains don't do these things and neither do most Muslims.
Pointing out similarities in belief will help your cause - but you are very persistent to the point of Christian hate and you push it at people who aren't Christian.....like the atheist and the pagan should be required to explain these things to you.
Again, you've helped me make my point. If the men who are accused of this crime weren't Muslim, the notion of any connection to any religious doctrine would never have been raised. But because they're Muslim, it's obviously an honour killing. We don't even know if these characters are guilty let alone what their motivation was for killing these women, if they did. But because they're Muslim, what happened was an "honour killing", a term that does not exist anywhere in Islamic texts.
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Ae
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 10:04 pm |
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The point I made is that most Christian SOCIETIES do not condone this.
Most Islamic ones have exceptions that DO condone it. As does Hinduism.
It is a doctrine practiced in two religions, and can be culturally attached to them as being an excuse to do this. Ignoring that isn't a form of honesty.
Last edited on Thu Jul 30th, 2009 10:06 pm by Ae
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 10:11 pm |
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Ae wrote
His wife was going to leave him. He killed his three girls for honour.
Really? Well, let's not waste money on a trial. You've convicted the guy and know exactly why he did.
And you're busy saying how Christians are worse and these people are misunderstood.
I've never said this. I've said that Chrisitanity has as much religious dogma as Islam and proved it. Until 1991, it was ok to kill a woman in Brazil if you could prove she had dishonoured you. A Muslim country? No, one of the strictest Roman Catholic countries in the world
I know that willingness to defend the "underdog" but you should evaluate it in yourself on occassion to make sure it isn't over taking you in a differently biased position. "the opposite" isn't necessarily the "better" position.
My point is this and nothing more. All men of all colours and religions kill women. Saying that it's an acceptable precept of Muslim society is a lie. Misogyny and the ultimate expression of it isn't restricted to Muslims. In fact, the worst killers of women in this country were not Muslims by a long shot.
You can't say that when someone kills a woman it's one thing and when someone else does it, it's another. It's all violence against women.
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Ae
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 10:16 pm |
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Only, its got a NAME and cultural status, and a cultural place in these countries and cultures. Pretending otherwise isn't useful.
Even women in these cultures call it that, and they are fighting it.
Guy killing his wife because she's going to leave him is the same all over. Claiming that its your perogative because the Prophet said so is not.
Claiming you can't see that is not intellectually honest. And it isn't something that many a Muslim woman working to get rid of these crimes won't appreciate that you dismiss so cavalierly what is an essential element of the crime.
Last edited on Thu Jul 30th, 2009 10:17 pm by Ae
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 10:17 pm |
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Ae wrote: The point I made is that most Christian SOCIETIES do not condone this.
Most Islamic ones have exceptions that DO condone it. As does Hinduism.
It is a doctrine practiced in two religions, and can be culturally attached to them as being an excuse to do this. Ignoring that isn't a form of honesty.
Manufacturing cultural imperatives isn't a form of honesty either. Show me in the statutes of an existing Muslim country where killing one's family is acceptable under law if someone in that family dishonours the family's partriarch.
Then you can pinpoint Hindu and Islam religious texts that say it's allowable to kill women if you feel the urge.
But on this second point, even if you could do it, I could provide quotes from the bible, as I've done, that are every bit as mysoginist.
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Ae
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 10:21 pm |
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Oh man. You really really love the Christian vs. Muslim thing. I can argue Christian thought with you if you like.
But it still won't explain that certain cultural practices, propped up by these religions for billions of people, are categorically more common in the areas where those religions are practiced.
FGM isn't in the Quran - but it is overwhelmingly practiced and protected by Muslim cultures. Thinking that there is no reason as to why that is is being intentionally obtuse.
And you REALLY need to get over trying to make the atheist and the pagan defend Christianity because it the ONLY argument you have.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 10:32 pm |
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Ae wrote: Oh man. You really really love the Christian vs. Muslim thing. I can argue Christian thought with you if you like. But it still won't explain that certain cultural practices, propped up by these religions for billions of people, are categorically more common in the areas where those religions are practiced.
FGM isn't in the Quran - but it is overwhelmingly practiced and protected by Muslim cultures. Thinking that there is no reason as to why that is is being intentionally obtuse.
And you REALLY need to get over trying to make the atheist and the pagan defend Christianity because it the ONLY argument you have.
Okay, so you admit that it isn't in the Qu;'ran. That's my major point. People can interpret any religious text to justify their actions. Doesn't mean they're directed to do it specifically in those texts.
Now, grant me the favour of showing me in the laws of any Islamic nation where it's legal to kill women because of religious imperatives.
I never said that there weren't honour killings. That's your invention. I believe there are and I believe that many of the killings of women done in our society by people that have no religious imperatives at all are a kind of honour killing, as you yourself pointed out. What I'm saying is that using the deaths of women under honor killing circumstances to defame an entire religion is shallow, biased thinking.
As for Muslim women speaking out against honour killilngs, that's fine. There are also many Muslim and Hindu woman who deny the notion of honour killings and say that it's a form of prejudicial thinking, that killing women is just killing women pure and simple, no matter who does it and why.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 10:43 pm |
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Here's a very balanced article about "honour killings" that you and Steve may wish to read.
http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html
Here's an excerpt from it:
"Most "honour" killings of women occur in Muslim countries, the focus of this case study; but it is worth noting that no sanction for such murders is granted in Islamic religion or law. And the phenomenon is in any case a global one. According to Stephanie Nebehay, such killings "have been reported in Bangladesh, Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey and Uganda." Afghanistan, where the practice is condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban movement, can be added to the list, along with Iraq and Iran. (Nebehay, "'Honor Killings' of Women Said on Rise Worldwide," Reuters dispatch, April 7, 2000.)"
The bolded line is important. The only country that I know of in which honour killings were sanctioned and used as a defense under law was Brazil. This changed but men are still given ridiculously low sentences for killing women in Brazil and other Roman Catholic countries in South America. If you don;'t think this emanates from the Christian perspective of women, you need to do some research.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Fri Jul 31st, 2009 12:10 am |
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onwar,
I've learned to recognize the I-disagree-with-you-and-I'll-think-of-a-reason-later posters, and you're one of them. Trying to having an honest discussion with you is an exercise in futility.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Fri Jul 31st, 2009 12:24 am |
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stevecanuck wrote: onwar,
I've learned to recognize the I-disagree-with-you-and-I'll-think-of-a-reason-later posters, and you're one of them. Trying to having an honest discussion with you is an exercise in futility.
That's an interesting analysis coming from someone who apparently has a problem posting any stats or links to provide backing for his claims, which I've done here. You've obviously refused to read the article I posted the link to above or you have read it and being unable to muster any real evidence to contradict it, you back out. This is very typical of you.
Your comment above is purely sour grapes because you are unable to make your case, which is that the Qu'ran sanctions honour killings. I've proven this isn't true (even AE agrees with me) and you can't come up with the goods to contradict me.
Go ahead and smear Islam as an evil hateful religion.
Just don't expect thinking people to buy into the personal anecdotes you use ad naseum to prove your case.
Muslim people are as decent as any other. In fact, I'd venture to say that they're far more decent than people like you who have a hate on for them based on your faulty understanding of their religion and the false claims you make to degrade them.
PS. Steve, I don't know what your take on the justice system is in Canada but people are deemed innocent until they're proven guilty, even if they belong to that Satanic group of hateful evil baby eaters known as Muslims.
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