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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 01:16 am |
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Ae wrote: You going to find ten men who live in North America or Europe of European descent with some influence and aren't looked upon as nut bars, who promote killing your wife and girls when they dishonour you?
Here are sixty men in Germany who contend exactly the opposite of you - that it is a cultural obligation.
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/1/4/4/5/p114456_index.html
This is a direct descent of the fact of what women's stated place is in Islam - a source of shame.
This is practiced in ALL lslamic societies. Showing that the people who practice it enmass, not just the select few, directly disagree with your interpretation. And are willing to live it, and kill for this meme.
Honour killing is domestic violence. But it isn't JUST domestic violence.
If a man here kills his daughter because he believes she's slutty, he's considered a criminal and deranged.
What he is NOT is considered valiant and a warrior of God sacrificing his own for the greater good. Nor could you usual find that members of the family helped plan and commit these murders.
If an individual here claimed that, he'd be sent for a psychological assessment. I mean, I guess you could claim that personality disorders in these cultures are considered to be a good thing and therefore it is just coincidence that Islam and Hinduism happen to have some sort of affinity for those personality disorders. That could be the other possible way to rationalize it.
Memes aren't nothing.
It is RARE in Western cultures for men to kill their teenage daughters. It is even rarer for them to do so in a planned manner. With family accomplices. And if profiled, it would be very unlikely that they raped and brutalized and tortured them in advance of doing so to punish them before death. Only the intensity of exactly this crime done by Muslims and Hindus would often include all of those things. They show no remorse - because they are heroes. The sort of brutality one might only expect if someone's very mental ecology was at stake.
Pretending that there isn't something about these cultures that is feeding and promoting this is not honest, and isn't useful. Going into a therapy session with a man who believes those things, and is backed by a couple of billion people in that thought process and telling him that his religious thought on the matter isn't relevant would be STUPID. But for political reasons, we're supposed to be exactly that stupid about our society.
Really, arguing with ME about how it isn't Islamic or Hindu to kill your daughters for dishonouring them is ridiculous. Go argue with the couple of billion people who do believe that it is Islamic and Hindu to do so. Asking us to not notice that a third of the planet belongs to cultures that practice these things is asking us to be intentionally blind. As a matter of fact, the FEW scholars and Imams and other religious leaders who are saying that are all saying it TO ME. How odd is that? I mean, really, shouldn't you be telling the people who are IN your religion and living in cultures that sanction it? Or are they afraid that they'll be targetted by their "fellow" religious leaders for it?
The people leading the charge against these crimes and saying that it isn't Islam or Hinduism are pretty much ALL FROM WESTERN COUNTRIES. And their fellow Muslims who are still living across the ocean see them as being corrupted by Christians. A charge that is almost impossible to contest.
Imam - http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009617story_17-6-2009_pg7_5
For all ridiculous things that fatwa have been issued for, one for men killing their daughters and wives and female cousins for "dishonour" has never happened.
It is also interesting that for all that you say that these aren't "honour killings" there are women all over the Muslim world who are running, at great personal risk to themselves, campaigns and websites and journals and organizations to end honour killings. They don't call them "domestic violence" or "interpersonal partner violence." They call them honour killings, because that's why their being killed for. For honour. And they seem to know it, even if you don't.
To begin with STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I NEVER SAID THAT THERE WEREN'T HONOUR KILLINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do I need to say it again? Probably becuase this is the third time I've had to repeat it.
I'm saying and you still have come nowhere close to proving me wrong, that nowhere in the Qu'ran is honor killing mentioned let alone promoted.
I'm also saying that it shows up in non-Muslim cultures.
Further, you are arguing that I won't accept that there deplorable repression of women in Islamic countries. This is also an example of you putting words in my mouth. I'm aware that that disgusting repression exists. You have a bad, bad habit of underestimating people.
Because you seem to have lost the point so entirely, I'll restate it or rather, them because there's more than one.
1. There is nothing in the Qu'ran that you can point to that literally sanctions honor killings
2. There is nothing in any law in any Islamic country that sanctions killing of Muslim women who disobey their husbands.
3. There is no poll or anything else that proves that most Muslim men view other Muslim men as valiant warriors of god when they kill their women. The vast, vast majority of Muslim do not kill their women and if it were a religious edict it would be an everyday occurence considering how devout Muslims are.
You are completely fixated on the notion of honor killilng, which you can't accept is not a practice that occurs solely in Islam. For this reason, you are unable to see the forest for the trees. A perfect example of this is you reference to women in Islamic countries who are fighting against honour killilngs. But they're not fighting against honor killings. This is only part of it. They're fighting against cultural repression of women, violence against women. It encompasses a huge amount besides honour killings. They know this ,even if you don't.
AE, you don't like Muslims and you find their religion repugnant. You keep harping on honour killings as a way to defame Islam. But you still haven't even come close, not even close to making a real connection between the basis of Islam and honor killings.
I'll repeat: there is nothing in the Qu'ran that sanctions honor killings. There is nothing in Islamic law that sanctions the killing of women. Are there repressive Islamic cultures? Yes, there are and that's what we should be taking aim at not the Qu'ran. I know you can't wrap your mind around this because you are suffering under the delusion that Muslim culture is entirely and literally dictated in the Qu'ran. If that were so, the Muslim population in Canada would not be so actively involved in toppling repressive Islamic regimes ,which they most definitely are.
If you really give a shi* about these women, you should try to overcome your bizzare prejudice against their religion, which they practice devoutly, and understand that it's a culture not a religion that is behind honour killings and repressive practices regarding women. The most powerful movies depicting the subjugation of Muslim women have been made by Muslims of both genders. I'd suggest you acquaint yourself with some of them, like the Persian movie Two Women or the current Iranian/Canadian movie The Stoning of Sayonara (spelling?) These and others are ultra realistic movies depicting repression against women in Islamic cultures and the roots of that repression. And it isn't non-existent text in the Qu'ran.
PS. You haven't done what you said you were going to do which is provide a list of men in Islamic countries who have made laws encouraging and promoting honour killings. I'm really not sure what point this would prove in regards to the Qu;ran but in any case, you ain't done it.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 01:27 am |
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Ae wrote:
It is also interesting that for all that you say that these aren't "honour killings" there are women all over the Muslim world who are running, at great personal risk to themselves, campaigns and websites and journals and organizations to end honour killings. They don't call them "domestic violence" or "interpersonal partner violence." They call them honour killings, because that's why their being killed for. For honour. And they seem to know it, even if you don't.
You'd better read this before you put yourself in a position of speaking for Muslim women and determining what they do and don't call honour killings:
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/media/story/2008/11/12/parvez-magazine.html?ref=rss
And there's more:
http://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/Pages/honorkillings.html
excerpt
In Qur’an, prophetic tradition, and law, one finds a very strong presumption of women’s chastity along with numerous safeguards to prevent any imputation of unchastity. Within such a context, honor killings are utterly criminal. Numerous prophetic traditions report that when asked about a husband finding his wife with another man, the Prophet agreed that the husband must procure three additional witnesses to her act before the public authority can judge her offense; otherwise he would be liable to lashing for publicly accusing her or to being killed if he killed. If a woman discovered in flagrante cannot be even publicly accused unless there are four witnesses to her act, then mere suspicion can never justify slaying a woman. Questioned by another man who claimed that his honor (ghira) would require him to immediately slay his wife’s lover in such a case, the Prophet reportedly declared that God’s honor was greater than any human’s. (See Hadith page.) The implication is that God’s revealed procedures for dealing with illicit sex must take precedence over human ego and emotion. This does not mean, of course, that human honor is unimportant. The stress placed on safeguarding women’s reputations and punishing slander demonstrates an awareness that such accusations can have devastating consequences for those accused.
http://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/Pages/honorkillings.html
Last edited on Sat Aug 1st, 2009 01:32 am by onwaranupwar
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Wed Aug 5th, 2009 12:30 am |
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onwaranupwar wrote:
1. There is nothing in the Qu'ran that you can point to that literally sanctions honor killings
I'm back from Sask, and too busy for now to do anything other than have a quick look at these boards, but I would like to point out that I already showed you a sanctioned honour killing in Sura 18 from ayaat 65 to 81.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 04:44 am |
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stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote:
1. There is nothing in the Qu'ran that you can point to that literally sanctions honor killings
I'm back from Sask, and too busy for now to do anything other than have a quick look at these boards, but I would like to point out that I already showed you a sanctioned honour killing in Sura 18 from ayaat 65 to 81.
And the bible is full of people being killed for disobeying God's word. It doesn't mean that the bible literally sanctions adulterers being stoned to death or that people who worship someone else other than the Old Testament god should be scourged. The Qu'ran does not say that a man can decide to kill his family if he thinks they're deviating from the path of Islam.
But you know what, Steve? People can find anything they want in the bible or Qu'ran or any other holy book to try to prove their point if that point is important enough to them. And your hatred of Muslims is clearly important enough to you to read whatever you want into the Qu'ran to represent it as fundamentally evil.
Here's an interesting poll done by Pew Forum, which charts religious trends in the US.
http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=234
Here's an excerpt of it that pertains to this topic:
"Half of Muslim Americans (50%) view the Koran as the word of God to be taken literally, word for word. Majorities of both white evangelicals (66%) and black Protestants (68%) hold a similar view of the Bible."
Honour killings are a cultural phenomenon, not a religious one. You'll never agree but the facts aren't on your side.
AE has dropped out of this conversation but I'd be interested to know who she can believe that the Canadian presence in A-stan can change attitudes towards women there if those attitudes are dictated by the Qu'ran, as she believes.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 04:43 pm |
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onwaranupwar wrote: stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote:
1. There is nothing in the Qu'ran that you can point to that literally sanctions honor killings
I'm back from Sask, and too busy for now to do anything other than have a quick look at these boards, but I would like to point out that I already showed you a sanctioned honour killing in Sura 18 from ayaat 65 to 81.
And the bible is full of people being killed for disobeying God's word. It doesn't mean that the bible literally sanctions adulterers being stoned to death or that people who worship someone else other than the Old Testament god should be scourged. The Qu'ran does not say that a man can decide to kill his family if he thinks they're deviating from the path of Islam.
I've highlighted your original statement plus a new one. First you said, "There is nothing in the Qu'ran that you can point to that literally sanctions honor killings", and I corrected you on that point. Instead of acknowledging that fact, you launched into yet another bible-related non-sequitur.
As to whether that verse allows a man to kill his family for deviating from Islam, of course it does. Did you not notice that the Arabic word used to describe the youth's coming sins is "kufran"? I'm sure you know it comes from the same 3-letter root as "kafir" (kaff, feh, reh). It means religious infidelity, and is cited as one of the two reasons for killing the youth.
But you know what, Steve? People can find anything they want in the bible or Qu'ran or any other holy book to try to prove their point if that point is important enough to them. And your hatred of Muslims is clearly important enough to you to read whatever you want into the Qu'ran to represent it as fundamentally evil.
Your ignorance isn't just showing - it's up in lights. As your extensive study of the qur'an has undoubtedly shown you, it states several times that it is "presented as a series of parables and similitudes from which man is to take admonition". This is an example meant to be followed. That's the entire purpose for the existence of the qur'an in the first place, as you well know, but deem too inconvenient to acknowledge.
Here's an excerpt of it that pertains to this topic:
"Half of Muslim Americans (50%) view the Koran as the word of God to be taken literally, word for word.
Again you ignore what your endless hours of Islamic study have told you. The word Islam means "submission (to god)", and the qur'an was sent by him to show man the exact form submission is supposed to take. It is presented as verbatim dictation from god covering all facets of life and how he expects us to live it. Anyone who calls himself a Muslim, but doesn't believe the qur'an to be precise instructions will have a lot of splainin to do one day.
And thank you for being the perfect straight man and allowing me another opportunity to educate anyone who might be following this.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 05:26 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote:
1. There is nothing in the Qu'ran that you can point to that literally sanctions honor killings
I'm back from Sask, and too busy for now to do anything other than have a quick look at these boards, but I would like to point out that I already showed you a sanctioned honour killing in Sura 18 from ayaat 65 to 81.
And the bible is full of people being killed for disobeying God's word. It doesn't mean that the bible literally sanctions adulterers being stoned to death or that people who worship someone else other than the Old Testament god should be scourged. The Qu'ran does not say that a man can decide to kill his family if he thinks they're deviating from the path of Islam.
I've highlighted your original statement plus a new one. First you said, "There is nothing in the Qu'ran that you can point to that literally sanctions honor killings", and I corrected you on that point. Instead of acknowledging that fact, you launched into yet another bible-related non-sequitur.
As to whether that verse allows a man to kill his family for deviating from Islam, of course it does. Did you not notice that the Arabic word used to describe the youth's coming sins is "kufran"? I'm sure you know it comes from the same 3-letter root as "kafir" (kaff, feh, reh). It means religious infidelity, and is cited as one of the two reasons for killing the youth.
But you know what, Steve? People can find anything they want in the bible or Qu'ran or any other holy book to try to prove their point if that point is important enough to them. And your hatred of Muslims is clearly important enough to you to read whatever you want into the Qu'ran to represent it as fundamentally evil.
Your ignorance isn't just showing - it's up in lights. As your extensive study of the qur'an has undoubtedly shown you, it states several times that it is "presented as a series of parables and similitudes from which man is to take admonition". This is an example meant to be followed. That's the entire purpose for the existence of the qur'an in the first place, as you well know, but deem too inconvenient to acknowledge.
Here's an excerpt of it that pertains to this topic:
"Half of Muslim Americans (50%) view the Koran as the word of God to be taken literally, word for word.
Again you ignore what your endless hours of Islamic study have told you. The word Islam means "submission (to god)", and the qur'an was sent by him to show man the exact form submission is supposed to take. It is presented as verbatim dictation from god covering all facets of life and how he expects us to live it. Anyone who calls himself a Muslim, but doesn't believe the qur'an to be precise instructions will have a lot of splainin to do one day.
And thank you for being the perfect straight man and allowing me another opportunity to educate anyone who might be following this.
Steve, I believe that you've read the Qu'ran or at least the parts of it you think you can use to villianize and misrepresent Islam. But people can read books on rocket science and not only not understand anything about it but not know what a rocket is. This is very much the case with you.
If you think there isn't the same panoply of intensity of belief and levels of literal interpretation in Islam as there is in Christianity, you're entirely ignorant on the subject. Christians call the Bible The Word of God. They don't stone women. They did however take over entire civilizations and destroy them believing they were doing God's work. But these principles were filtered through cultural and societal beliefs. They weren't directly religious and niether are honour killings, which are also largely cultural. If they weren't, honour killings would be happening every day in every country in the world.
I don't expect you to understand one word of this. You're not stupid, but you're not a thinker. You're a reactionary who forms an opinion and then arranges evidence to support it.
Educate me? You'd better educate yourself first and not just on the complexities of Islam but the whole notion of critical thinking, which you lack entirely.
Anyway, Steve, you're happily gloating over this event in Ottawa because you can twist it into evidence to support your hatred of Muslims. (Using the death of four women as part of your anti-Muslim bandwagon is really a bit sickening, btw.) But the only people buying it are people like you: ignorant, hateful and ready to condemn with no facts--like whether or not this was an honour killing--to back your preposterous statements.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 05:36 pm |
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And because you didn't read it or refused to acknowledge it because it doesn't fit with your hole-ridden "knowledge" of Muslim culture, I'll post this fact again:
"Half of Muslim Americans (50%) view the Koran as the word of God to be taken literally, word for word. Majorities of both white evangelicals (66%) and black Protestants (68%) hold a similar view of the Bible. Among Catholics and white mainline Protestants, by contrast, far fewer than half (25% and 22%, respectively) take a literal view of the Scriptures. "
If you're unable to grasp this, Steve, I'll explain it for you. Far more white evangelicals and black protestants than Muslims view the Bible as the literal word of God. This from an objective poll that isn't based, like your absurd view, on subjective opinions.
Not that I'd want reality to interfere with your fantasy view of Islam but...
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 05:59 pm |
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Should be:
"There are far more white evangelicals and black protestants who view the Bible as the literal word of God than there are Muslims who view the Qu'ran as the literal word of God."
If you have stats that trump this, let's see them.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 08:06 pm |
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onwaranupwar wrote: Steve, I believe that you've read the Qu'ran or at least the parts of it you think you can use to villianize and misrepresent Islam. But people can read books on rocket science and not only not understand anything about it but not know what a rocket is. This is very much the case with you.
Your "arguments" have pretty much boiled down to, "IS NOT!!!!!".
You failed to address so much as one point that I made in the response you quoted. Not one.
Anyway, Steve, you're happily gloating over this event in Ottawa because you can twist it into evidence to support your hatred of Muslims. (Using the death of four women as part of your anti-Muslim bandwagon is really a bit sickening, btw.) But the only people buying it are people like you: ignorant, hateful and ready to condemn with no facts--like whether or not this was an honour killing--to back your preposterous statements.
Toss in yet another ad hominen attack, and we're done. It's so much easier than actually debating the subject, isn't it?
The only thing you said that's worth clearing up is your never-ending claim that I hate Muslims. So, here it is again - I HATE THE RELIGION OF ISLAM. The only Muslims I hate are any who cheer the deaths of infidels or hate me simply because I am an infidel. Many are Muslim in name only and don't even read the qur'an. These people make good neighbours just like anybody else.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 08:20 pm |
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onwaranupwar wrote: And because you didn't read it or refused to acknowledge it because it doesn't fit with your hole-ridden "knowledge" of Muslim culture, I'll post this fact again:
Read my response again, and you'll see I acknowledged it and commented.
"Half of Muslim Americans (50%) view the Koran as the word of God to be taken literally, word for word. Majorities of both white evangelicals (66%) and black Protestants (68%) hold a similar view of the Bible. Among Catholics and white mainline Protestants, by contrast, far fewer than half (25% and 22%, respectively) take a literal view of the Scriptures. "
If you're unable to grasp this, Steve, I'll explain it for you. Far more white evangelicals and black protestants than Muslims view the Bible as the literal word of God. This from an objective poll that isn't based, like your absurd view, on subjective opinions.
Not that I'd want reality to interfere with your fantasy view of Islam but...
So what? My comments are entirely based on what the qur'an says and what Muslims are expected to believe. What does PEW say about Arabic speaking Muslims living in the ME? I lived there and I know the number who believe the qur'an to be the literal word of god is about 100%.
Again it's worth noting that the qur'an says "This is god speaking. Listen up". The very definition of being a Muslim is to believe that. But please continue to ignore that fact. You sound weaker and weaker every time you try to run that by us.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 07:39 am |
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stevecanuck wrote:
So what? My comments are entirely based on what the qur'an says and what Muslims are expected to believe. What does PEW say about Arabic speaking Muslims living in the ME? I lived there and I know the number who believe the qur'an to be the literal word of god is about 100%.
This is typical of you, Steve: trying to pass off anecdotal observations as facts. "About a 100%". Yeah, you're a real social scientist, aren't you Steve?
It's one of the reasons that it's so hard to take you at all seriously. It might be enough for your redneck pals who don't need much persuasion to get riled up about Muslims. It takes more than that to make a case with thinking people.
Again it's worth noting that the qur'an says "This is god speaking. Listen up".
Yes, exactly like the bible. Ever heard Christians say "The word of God"? They're not talking about a company logo, Steve.
The very definition of being a Muslim is to believe that. But please continue to ignore that fact.
Calling something a fact doesn't make it so. But that's a difficult reality for you to accept, isn't it, Steve
You sound weaker and weaker every time you try to run that by us.
You have no idea what it is or isn't to be a Muslim. You're not any kind of scholar or even someone with a genuine interest in the Qu'ran and Islam. You've only read parts of the Qu'ran to prove that Islam is an evil religion. You bring up Surah 18 but have no idea what it's actually about and don't care. You've never read any critical writings on Islam. You seem also to be completely ignorant about Christianity. You grasp of Islam and religion/culture in general is neglible and you prove it every time you open your mouth.
The fact is, and this is a fact, that most devout Muslims by far live a peaceful life and hurt no one. They follow the Qu'ran in their own way. Maybe it excludes you and the rest of your redneck pals but too bad. Grow up and get over it.
You don't give a fuc* about those women who were killed and never even would have brought it up except that it's an alleged honour killing and in your mind, that's cause for celebration because you think it proves your point.
One more thing, Steve: the term honour killing is not exclusive to any religion or culture. It's a term that was coined by social scientists. It doesn't apply only to Muslims, it doesn't appear in any Islamic literature anywhere--not that you'd know.
Last word: the only thing that you've presented in this entire argument is your laughable interpretation of Surah 18, which appears on every lame ass anti-Muslim blog on the net. Oh, yes, that and your assertion that all Muslims take the Qu'ran literally, which I neatly blew out of the water by presenting facts instead of subjective feelings about an entire religion as you do.
And you still haven't answered my question: how do you know that these men are guilty of commiting honour killings? The answer is simple. In your mind, you've tried and convicted these men as well as supplied a motive for what you claim they did. You've done it because you hate Muslims and they must be guilty. But you know, Steve, even in repressive Islamic cultures, people are given some semblance of a trial. You might try putting aside your repugnance towards Muslims and allow that to happen in this country.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 05:29 pm |
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Your "responses" have turned into 100% trollism, so I guess we're done. But you've served a useful purpose. You've been the perfect foil. Thanks.
Anyone who would like to see the story in Sura 18 can go here. Just click on sura 18 and scroll down to ayah 65. The story is very clear. I will be happy to answer any real questions if I can.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 11:52 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: Your "responses" have turned into 100% trollism, so I guess we're done. But you've served a useful purpose. You've been the perfect foil. Thanks. Typical MO, Steve. You've been pushed into a corner and now you're trying to weasle out of it by claiming victory.
Here are the facts: You've offered up nothing at all to back your point, which is that devout Muslims take the Qu'ran literally and would always interpret Surah 18 as sanctioning honour killing, a term that even someone as ignorant as you must know happens in many countries and culture. I on the other hand have posted FACTS about the way Muslims perceive the Qu'ran. Just spouting your thickheaded redneck opinions doesn't even begin to rebut these FACTS. But then rednecks like yourself never let a facts get in the way of a good fantasy, especially when you use to encourage hatred against a religion that you know almost nothing about apart from some misinformation you've pulled from a few redneck blogs. Anyone who would like to see the story in Sura 18 can go here. Just click on sura 18 and scroll down to ayah 65. The story is very clear. I will be happy to answer any real questions if I can.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/
Steve, are you a complete idiot or one just in training? The "story" as you call it, of Surah 18 can't be understood by reading part of it. The entire thing has to read and understood in context. This is something you are incapable of doing. As I've said before, critical thinking is far far beyond your ken. And so is the point of Surah 18.
As for answering "real questions" I've put real questions to you over and over again in this thread. You refuse to answer them because you can't. All you offer is your shallow opinion based on absolutely nothing and accuse me of being a troll.
You have a hate on for Muslims, all Muslims. That's your business. But don't try to pretend that your hatred of a billion people has any factual basis. The only fact you've provided is a laughably ignorant interpretation of a single line in the Qu'ran which you can't grasp.
Finally, i can't be the only one who sees the way you've already convicted these men and provided a concrete motive for their crime long before they've come to trial. That's more proof of your irrational hatred of Muslims.
If this story was about one of the 50 women and/or their children who were killed by their husbands in Canada last year, you wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. You and your redneck buddies wouldn't pay it the least bit of attention. But because it's a Muslim family, you're on it like a fly drawn to shi*. And that's about the quality of the case you're making here: shi*.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 12:13 am |
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If anyone wants to read some informed commentary on Surah 18 rather than Steve's ignorant drivel, check out these writings by the Islamic scholar Robert Spencer.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020347.php
I don't expect that Steve will read this because it's exactly this kind of intelligent, well researched material doesn't serve any purpose to him and is way over his head. But for others interested in being educated on the Sura under discussion, it's illuminating.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 02:39 am |
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I'll be happy to continue this discussion as long as you want to, but you're going to have learn how to be civil first.
Let me know if or when you're interested.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 02:51 am |
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onwaranupwar wrote: If anyone wants to read some informed commentary on Surah 18 rather than Steve's ignorant drivel, check out these writings by the Islamic scholar Robert Spencer.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020347.php
I don't expect that Steve will read this because it's exactly this kind of intelligent, well researched material doesn't serve any purpose to him and is way over his head. But for others interested in being educated on the Sura under discussion, it's illuminating.
Here's a quote from the site;
Another point emerges in Islamic tradition: don’t kill children, unless you know they’re going to grow up to be unbelievers. “The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside.” The assumption thus enunciated may help explain the persistence of the phenomenon of honor-killing in Islamic countries and even among Muslims in the West.
How does this not support what I've been saying?
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 03:45 am |
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stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: If anyone wants to read some informed commentary on Surah 18 rather than Steve's ignorant drivel, check out these writings by the Islamic scholar Robert Spencer.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020347.php
I don't expect that Steve will read this because it's exactly this kind of intelligent, well researched material doesn't serve any purpose to him and is way over his head. But for others interested in being educated on the Sura under discussion, it's illuminating.
Here's a quote from the site;
Another point emerges in Islamic tradition: don’t kill children, unless you know they’re going to grow up to be unbelievers. “The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside.” The assumption thus enunciated may help explain the persistence of the phenomenon of honor-killing in Islamic countries and even among Muslims in the West.
How does this not support what I've been saying?
Another cheap trick, Steve. This is not what you've been saying. What you've been saying is that the Qu'ran sanctions honor killing and that to do so is the literal word of Allah that all devout Muslims accept. This passage in Surah doesnt' come close to doing that anymore than a specific passage in the bible encouraged Christians to decimate entire nations of indiginous people in the name of God. You seem unable to grasp this.
You also seem unable to grasp that honor killings happen in non-Muslim cultures and the basis of violence towards women is not simply a religious precept stated plainly in any scriptures. It's misogyny rooted in cultural precepts and influenced in part by religion. You get aroused when four women are allegedly killed by an authoritarian patriarch in a show of control. And so you should. But you deliniate between this particular case and the cases of women (and often their children) who have also been killed by jealous or controlling spouses or stalkers or boyfriends. I've posted examples of this along with examples of the reluctance of the justice system to give these men the sentences they deserve. Not justice systems in Iran but in North America. Why do you think that there are (not enough) government funded women's shelters where battered women are protected by guards because of death threats from their husbands--who to many times follow through? The answer is because there are a lot of men out there--non Muslims--who think that they have the right to hurt or kill women if they disobey them.
Making this a Muslim issue serves your purpose which is to defame the Muslim religion. But it isn't a Muslim issue, it's violence against women because of an imperative to punish women when they don't obey men.
I hate the situation of women in Afghanistan and the reason I support our troops being there is because there is a (very) slim chance of improving things for them. But you could outlaw the Qu'ran tomorrow and disallow its precepts from being taught and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference because the oppression of women is a cultural/societal problem, a human rights issue. Attack the perps, not the holy book they read.
The real issue is how to eradicate misogyny and the usurpation of women's rights in all cultures and countries. For you the issue is to prove that Islam is evil. I'll never buy it because the fact is that the overwhelming majority of Muslims never hurt a soul in their lives and in fact millions of them are fighting to improve women's circumstances. I'd suggest that instead of spending all your time combing the Qu'ran for proof that it is the source of oppression of women, you do some reading about how changes are being made in Muslim countries to allow women their rights and still allow people to be devout. You see the two as incompatible but they aren't.
Anyway, I'm tired of trying to make this point because you refuse to respond to it. So knock yourself out. Just don't expect everyone to accept your blanket denunciation of Islam based on a tenuous reading of one surah from the Qu'ran.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 04:06 am |
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Here's an excellent article denouncing Muslim honor killings and discussing their basis by the Muslim Council of Britain.
I know Steve will accuse them of being disingenous but why would they even bother addressing the issue and condemning the people who practice it if they didn't sincerely wish to see an end to it?
http://www.islamawareness.net/HonourKilling/honour_killings.pdf
Last word: I really think it's disgusting that the killings of these four women, even if they were honour killings, have been seized on people like Steve to condemn Islam.
50 killings of women in Canada (and in many cases their children) by their spouses in 2005. How many of them made the front page or were discussed on talk shows or in newspaper editorials? Probably not a single one unless they were Muslim or Hindu. The killings of the women in Ontario have been used as excuses to attack not only Muslims but feminists and people who don't differentiate between one kind of violence against women over another.
These 50 deaths were perpetuated by the same imperatives behind honor killings--male domination of women and women veiwed as second class citizens without the same rights as men. Ask yourself why it took the RCMP ten fuc*ing years and 60 dead Vancouver women before they got off their useless asses and investigated. Or why the Highway of Tears murders of women were never investigated until one of the victims was a white, upper middle class kid. It isn't just Muslims who have lax attitudes about the value of women in society.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 10:33 pm |
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onwaranupwar wrote: If anyone wants to read some informed commentary on Surah 18 rather than Steve's ignorant drivel, check out these writings by the Islamic scholar Robert Spencer.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020347.php
I don't expect that Steve will read this because it's exactly this kind of intelligent, well researched material doesn't serve any purpose to him and is way over his head. But for others interested in being educated on the Sura under discussion, it's illuminating.
Just out of curiosity, what point from this article made you think it was a rebuttal to anything I said?
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Ae
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Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 10:48 pm |
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onwar - there are multiple sites being run by muslim women who are fighting honour killings. They can and do speak for themselves. At great peril. You may want to pretend that honour killings aren't, but there are many people living it.
And you're only arguments are "no they don't" "you don't know that" and "But The CHRISTIANS...." Come on.
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