 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
onwaranupwar
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2625 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 10:51 pm |
|
stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: If anyone wants to read some informed commentary on Surah 18 rather than Steve's ignorant drivel, check out these writings by the Islamic scholar Robert Spencer.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020347.php
I don't expect that Steve will read this because it's exactly this kind of intelligent, well researched material doesn't serve any purpose to him and is way over his head. But for others interested in being educated on the Sura under discussion, it's illuminating.
Just out of curiosity, what point from this article made you think it was a rebuttal to anything I said?
Where did I say it was a rebuttal? You're attempting to explicate something you don't understand. I'm providing its explication by someone who has some cred as a scholar and discusses every line of this Surah in context to the writings of Islam.
It's funny--in some ways Spencer has some pretty harsh ideas about contemporary Islam. But his scope of knowledge of Islam is so much more vast than yours and his understanding of how Islam and the Qu'ran are filtered through contemporary Muslim culture and society is on a level that is completely unknown to you. Whether or not you agree with his ideas on Islam, they are provocative and based on a lifetime of non-biased research and study. I think some of his points are arguable but I respect his knowledge and his ability to think critically.
You're just a reactionary, uninformed redneck who hates Muslims and your attempts to pass yourself off as being well versed in Islam scholarship are side-splittingly laughable.
Any clearer to you now. Steve?
|
stevecanuck
Member
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 11:18 pm |
|
onwaranupwar wrote: stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: If anyone wants to read some informed commentary on Surah 18 rather than Steve's ignorant drivel, check out these writings by the Islamic scholar Robert Spencer.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020347.php
I don't expect that Steve will read this because it's exactly this kind of intelligent, well researched material doesn't serve any purpose to him and is way over his head. But for others interested in being educated on the Sura under discussion, it's illuminating.
Just out of curiosity, what point from this article made you think it was a rebuttal to anything I said?
Where did I say it was a rebuttal? You're attempting to explicate something you don't understand. I'm providing its explication by someone who has some cred as a scholar and discusses every line of this Surah in context to the writings of Islam.
It's funny--in some ways Spencer has some pretty harsh ideas about contemporary Islam. But his scope of knowledge of Islam is so much more vast than yours and his understanding of how Islam and the Qu'ran are filtered through contemporary Muslim culture and society is on a level that is completely unknown to you. Whether or not you agree with his ideas on Islam, they are provocative and based on a lifetime of non-biased research and study. I think some of his points are arguable but I respect his knowledge and his ability to think critically.
You're just a reactionary, uninformed redneck who hates Muslims and your attempts to pass yourself off as being well versed in Islam scholarship are side-splittingly laughable.
Any clearer to you now. Steve?
Btw, I see you took my request for civil discourse to heart. You seem to think that the louder you shout, the more you must be right.
That you said, "If anyone wants to read some informed commentary on Surah 18 rather than Steve's ignorant drivel" is a clear indication that you think it contradicts what I said. But, it doesn't. He very clearly states that honour killing in Islam is directly related to that story.
Anyway, your shrill responses are starting to hurt my ears. If you think I won't stand for your trolling, condescending, self-righteousness - you're right. Bye.
|
stevecanuck
Member
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 11:40 pm |
|
My buddy, Zonne, offered the following comment. As I feel this to be one of the most important facets of any discussion of Islam, I thought a cut/paste of my response might be useful here as well.
zonnebloem wrote:
Islam doesn't have to be followed to the letter. In fact it should not be followed to the letter.
This is probably the most widely held misconception about Islam. I've said this many times, but it bears repeating every time someone shows they don't understand:
The qur'an is believed to be god's words verbatim, and in the language in which it was delivered to Mohamed. It is a direct sermon from god with exact instructions on what to believe and how to conduct one's entire life. There is NO ambiguity about that fact.
Therefore, its very existence is for the purpose of being taken literally. For a true discussion to ensue, this must be understood and accepted. If there's any doubt about this point, anything said thereafter is meaningless.
Please note that despite the fact that this forum's Muslims love to disagree with me, not one has ever disputed this point no matter how many times I make it, and in fact, Ali thanked me for stating it so clearly.
|
onwaranupwar
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2625 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 11:52 pm |
|
Ae wrote: onwar - there are multiple sites being run by muslim women who are fighting honour killings. They can and do speak for themselves. At great peril. You may want to pretend that honour killings aren't, but there are many people living it.
And you're only arguments are "no they don't" "you don't know that" and "But The CHRISTIANS...." Come on.
You know AE, this thread has made me lose a lot of respect for you and I'll tell you why. I don't often agree with you but I always thought you debated well and were above things like putting words in people's mouths or ignoring the points people are trying to make. This thread has proved me wrong.
1. I have never said that honour killlngs do not exist in Muslim culture. That's a complete fabrication on your part.
2. I am at least as aware of the plight of Muslim women as you are and possibly more so because I'm married to someone who is a feminist activist and not some upper middle class academic bitching about women wearing high heeled shows either. I'm pro Canada's involvement in Afghanistan for the sole reason of getting the women there the rights they deserve. I've stated this numerous times on this thread and on others.
I've tried to make three points on this thread which you have steadfastly ignored and refused to respond to. Here they are:
1. There is nothing in the Qu'ran that directly sanctions honor killings
2. Honor killlings take place in cultures other than Islamic ones
3. Violence against women doesn't emanate from some words in 1300 or 3000 year old "holy books". It's perpetrated by men in contemporary societies who want to control women and justify it in a number of different ones. It all boils down to the same thing: women being killed for not living up to men's expectations of them.
You are seriously in denial about this last point and nothing is going to persuade you that it's true.
That's fine but at least don't stoop to the level of others on this forum and insist that I've said things I haven't in order to make your point.
|
onwaranupwar
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2625 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 11:59 pm |
|
stevecanuck wrote:
That you said, "If anyone wants to read some informed commentary on Surah 18 rather than Steve's ignorant drivel" is a clear indication that you think it contradicts what I said.
It certainly does in the sense that you failed to completely understand the much larger context of Surah 18.
But, it doesn't. He very clearly states that honour killing in Islam is directly related to that story.
No, he doesn't. Here's what he states (note the essential words " may help explain
"The assumption thus enunciated may help explain the persistence of the phenomenon of honor-killing in Islamic countries and even among Muslims in the West."
Anyway, your shrill responses are starting to hurt my ears. If you think I won't stand for your trolling, condescending, self-righteousness - you're right. Bye.
People like you always amuse me. Post some garbage that you can't begin to back up and then get upset when people take you to task for it. If you want a free ride for your drivel, stick to the anti-Islam blogs where you get you info. If you're going to try to peddle your ignorance here ,expect to be taken up on it.
|
TenaciousC
Member
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 12:03 am |
|
My buddy, Zonne, offered the following comment. As I feel this to be one of the most important facets of any discussion of Islam, I thought a cut/paste of my response might be useful here as well.
zonnebloem wrote:
Islam doesn't have to be followed to the letter. In fact it should not be followed to the letter.
This is probably the most widely held misconception about Islam. I've said this many times, but it bears repeating every time someone shows they don't understand:
The qur'an is believed to be god's words verbatim, and in the language in which it was delivered to Mohamed. It is a direct sermon from god with exact instructions on what to believe and how to conduct one's entire life. There is NO ambiguity about that fact.
Therefore, its very existence is for the purpose of being taken literally. For a true discussion to ensue, this must be understood and accepted. If there's any doubt about this point, anything said thereafter is meaningless.
Please note that despite the fact that this forum's Muslims love to disagree with me, not one has ever disputed this point no matter how many times I make it, and in fact, Ali thanked me for stating it so clearly.
What you fail to grasp SC is that this is your interpretation of the Qu'ran. Your views do not represent the faith as a whole the same way that MILLIONS of Muslims do not condone violence of anytype. Instead of attack the faith system that these individuals practice, why not asses the education system these individuals are victims of.
|
onwaranupwar
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2625 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 12:06 am |
|
stevecanuck wrote: My buddy, Zonne, offered the following comment. As I feel this to be one of the most important facets of any discussion of Islam, I thought a cut/paste of my response might be useful here as well.
zonnebloem wrote:
Islam doesn't have to be followed to the letter. In fact it should not be followed to the letter.
This is probably the most widely held misconception about Islam. I've said this many times, but it bears repeating every time someone shows they don't understand:
The qur'an is believed to be god's words verbatim, and in the language in which it was delivered to Mohamed. It is a direct sermon from god with exact instructions on what to believe and how to conduct one's entire life. There is NO ambiguity about that fa
Therefore, its very existence is for the purpose of being taken literally. For a true discussion to ensue, this must be understood and accepted. If there's any doubt about this point, anything said thereafter is meaningless.
Here we go again. Steve expressing a very limited personal opinion about a subject he knows very little about and trying to pass it off as fact. I've posted the real facts on the subject and they blow your nonsense out of the water. I'll repeat them: only 50% of Muslims believe the the Qu'ran is meant to be taken literally.
Now you either post facts that contradict this that don't emanate from your imagination or admit that you don't have the knowledge of Islam to back a word you're saying.
And you're right: without this backing everything you have to say is meaningless. But I've made that clear all along.
So c'mon Steve. Provide proof that all good Muslims take the Qu'ran and everything in it literally.
Please note that despite the fact that this forum's Muslims love to disagree with me, not one has ever disputed this point no matter how many times I make it, and in fact, Ali thanked me for stating it so clearly.
|
Ae
Member
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 12:25 am |
|
The Quran is the literal word of God - the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind, considered to be the recited literal and final revelation of God.
That doesn't leave much to the imagination.
And.
WOO-HOO! I've made it. I've jump class distinctions! I'm now a middle class bitch.
That's awesome. Thanks.
Like most New Democrat socialist types, you sit on your high perch and think you know. Your wife works in the field. Well GOOD FOR YOU.
I'm so glad that you can tell me what and where things are at in the World of Women and how societies deal with them. THANKS! Next you should also lecture me on the welfare system, homelessness, the foster care system, being poor, alcoholics, domestic abuse of other sorts, child neglect, and starvation. I'm sure you'll have much to inform me of from my middle class bitch perch. I don't understand and don't have enough compassion. Please, tell me of your well founded learnings from your experience of never having lived anything of the sort. I LOVE that. ![[eyeroll]](/forums/themes/default/sarcasm.gif)
Demagogue.
Last edited on Tue Aug 11th, 2009 12:26 am by Ae
|
onwaranupwar
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2625 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 12:45 am |
|
Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God - the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind, considered to be the recited literal and final revelation of God.
No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy which I've disproved by posting the results of a PEW poll that states only 50% of Muslims take the Qu'ran literally. You're just plain wrong
And.
WOO-HOO! I've made it. I've jump class distinctions! I'm now a middle class bitch.
That's awesome. Thanks.
I wasn't directing the phrase at you. Judging from your complete lack of understanding about what violence against women is all about, I would never think of you as any kind of feminist at all. Like most New Democrat socialist types, Taking a cheap shot from Fed Up's book, eh? lol I'm more than proud to be a New Democrat (provincially) and I've made enough money running my own business all my life to laugh out at loud at you labelling me a socialist. Save the rhetoric for the children on this forum. you sit on your high perch and think you know. Your wife works in the field. Well GOOD FOR YOU. This coming from someone who a few posts ago was sanctimoniously lecturing me how I know nothing about the struggle of Muslim women. lol
I'm so glad that you can tell me what and where things are at in the World of Women and how societies deal with them. THANKS! Well, someone needs to because there are obviously serious gaps in your knowledge of the universal politics of power between men and women. Next you should also lecture me on the welfare system, homelessness, the foster care system, being poor, alcoholics, domestic abuse of other sorts, child neglect, and starvation. I'm sure you'll have much to inform me of from my middle class bitch perch. I don't understand and don't have enough compassion. Please, tell me of your well founded learnings from your experience of never having lived anything of the sort. If you're accusing me of having led a sheltered life, I can assure you that's not the case. In fact I can pretty much guarantee that my experience of the world has been a whole lot harsher than your comfy little existence. But what if it is? That's not what's under discussion here. I LOVE that.
Demagogue.
Keep indignantly tilting at imaginary windmills and avoiding the actual topic if you must. Just stop putting words in my mouth and try to keep track of what is and what isn't being said.
Last edited on Tue Aug 11th, 2009 12:51 am by onwaranupwar
|
onwaranupwar
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2625 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 01:24 am |
|
Ae wrote: onwar - there are multiple sites being run by muslim women who are fighting honour killings. They can and do speak for themselves. At great peril. You may want to pretend that honour killings aren't, but there are many people living it.
And you're only arguments are "no they don't" "you don't know that" and "But The CHRISTIANS...." Come on.
And before you go putting words into the mouths of Muslim women (just as youv'e done with me) maybe you should actually do a bit of research to understand how Muslim women see honour killings in relation to their religion: Like in this link for example:
http://www.mwlusa.org/topics/violence&harrassment/hk.html
Here's an excerpt with some lines bolded. read and learn, you and Steve:
"Due to recent media attention, the problem of “honor killings” has come under increasing global scrutiny. In various countries throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East and parts of South Asia, women who bring dishonor to their families because of sexual indiscretions are forced to pay a terrible price at the hands of male family members. Attempted murder and other forms of corporal punishment have been reported. The most severe manifestations of punishment affect only a small percentage of women, even though the notion of family honor and shame is extremely important in most communities of the Muslim world. Women from other faith groups may also be subject to similar attitudes from within their own communities in those countries.
Clearly, the prevailing view that devalues and belittles women is derived from sociocultural factors that are justified by a distorted and erroneous interpretation of religion, especially of Islam."
Get that? Not simply a plainly stated precept in a holy book that all good Muslims agree upon but "sociocultural factors that are justified by a distorted and erroneous interpretation of religion"
Understand those words: "sociocultural factors" "Interpretation of religion"? Not "literal reading of religion" but "distorted and erroneous interpretation of religion."
These women are saying exactly what I am. If you have the arrogance to tell them they're wrong go ahead but you better have something to back up your argument besides you conviction that you're right because, considering their position in this, they have a pretty strong grasp of the topic under discussion.
|
onwaranupwar
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2625 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 01:33 am |
|
And here is an extremely well balanced article by a Muslim in the National Post. Not that most of the people on this thread are interested in anything well-balanced but who knows:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1826529
Excerpt:
"....It is true that Islam's holy book, the Koran, does not sanction honour killings. But to deny the fact that many incidents of honour killings are conducted by Muslim fathers, sons and brothers, and that many victims are Muslim women, is to exercise intellectual dishonesty. At worst, it is an attempt to shut off debate.
When Mississauga, Ont., teenager Aqsa Pervez was killed, everyone from Mullahs to so-called Muslim feminists claimed it was not an honour killing - even though there were allegations she had run afoul of her family for socializing with non-Muslim friends and not wearing a hijab. Critics then charged that to refer to the murder in such words was to be an anti-Muslim bigot. Humbug.
As I said, it is true that the Koran does not sanction such murders, but man-made sharia law, which has been falsely imputed divine status, does allow for the killing of women if they indulge in pre-marital or extra-marital consensual sex. This is precisely why so many progressive and liberal Muslims have opposed the introduction of sharia law in Canada."
|
stevecanuck
Member
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 01:43 am |
|
onwaranupwar wrote: Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God - the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind, considered to be the recited literal and final revelation of God.
No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy which I've disproved by posting the results of a PEW poll that states only 50% of Muslims take the Qu'ran literally. You're just plain wrong
A "fantasy" shared by every Muslim I worked with in Egypt who took the time to discuss the quran with me (they were hoping for a conversion). Either you're doing a great job of embarrasing yourself, or you're just a troll having some fun.
That only 50% of American Muslims believe that is 100% irrelevant. They're supposed to believe it. I'm encouraged that so many don't.
OK, you tell us. What is the quran and how did it come to be?
Ummah, I know you're here hiding in the corner. Could you please tell these guys what the quran is? Thank you in advance.
|
onwaranupwar
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2625 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 01:54 am |
|
stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God - the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind, considered to be the recited literal and final revelation of God.
No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy which I've disproved by posting the results of a PEW poll that states only 50% of Muslims take the Qu'ran literally. You're just plain wrong
A "fantasy" shared by every Muslim I worked with in Egypt who took the time to discuss the quran with me (they were hoping for a conversion).
Now there is unequivocal evidence that you're right. Sweet Jesus, are you for real? Either you're doing a great job of embarrasing yourself, or you're just a troll having some fun.
You offer "proof" like the line above and you tell me I'm embarrassing myself?
That only 50% of American Muslims believe that is 100% irrelevant. They're supposed to believe it.
More assertions from someone who knows nothing about Islam. Nothing like a misinformed redneck from Alberta telling a billion Muslims what they're supposed to believe. lol
I'm encouraged that so many don't.
OK, you tell us. What is the quran and how did it come to be?
Read the book The History of God by Karen Armstrong. It's a bit scholarly but reasonably easy to read, even for the likes of you. I'm not going to waste my time encapsulating it for someone who doesn't really want to know anything about the Qu'ran except that which conforms to his shallow little opinion: "it's evil and Muslims suck".
Ummah, I know you're here hiding in the corner. Could you please tell these guys what the quran is? Thank you in advance.
Steve, I've explained to you over and over and over again. This will be the last time--until you can back your nonsensical claims with facts that are not simply opinions floating around in your head, you're not making a case. Is that clear enough?
|
onwaranupwar
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2625 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 05:26 am |
|
http://www.gallup.com/poll/27682/onethird-americans-believe-bible-literally-true.aspx
Excerpt:
PRINCETON, NJ -- About one-third of the American adult population believes the Bible is the actual word of God and is to be taken literally word for word. This percentage is slightly lower than several decades ago. The majority of those Americans who don't believe that the Bible is literally true believe that it is the inspired word of God but that not everything it in should be taken literally. About one in five Americans believe the Bible is an ancient book of "fables, legends, history, and moral precepts recorded by man."
Hmmmmm, "actual word of God and is to be taken literally word for word." Considering all that stuff about visiting death on non-believers, stoning adulterous women and ostracizing homosexuals , I wonder if we should allow more Christians into this country considering how likely they are to brutalize and kill based on their literal interpretation of the sacred Christian text.
|
stevecanuck
Member
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 05:39 pm |
|
Troll or not, Onwar provides a useful example of the non-linear thinker. In response to my claim that the quran is supposed to be believed by Muslims to be the direct word of God, he responds with a PEW poll result that shows only 50% of American Muslims believe that, then cites that as proof I'm wrong.
He seems to think that what people are expected to believe vs. what they actually believe is the same topic.
One of the easiest things in world to establish is what Muslims are expected to believe and what the quran is. I googled the question and got millions of hits. I randomly chose the following site (making sure it was a MUSLIM site).
http://www.muslim.org/islam/int-is5.htm
It has a Q&A section from which I extracted these:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
98. Is there any other notable distinction of the Holy Quran?
One that may be mentioned is that the Holy Quran tells us all about itself. From various places in it we learn that it is a Book called the Quran, a revelation from God, communicated to the Holy Prophet Muhammad, coming through the angel Gabriel, in the Arabic language.
103. What sort of subjects does the Holy Quran deal with?
An enormous range of topics. It tells us about God, His attributes, man's position in the universe, his aim in life and how to attain that aim, how we stand in relation to God and to our fellow-beings. It gives details of what one should believe and how it should be put into practice.
104. Does the Holy Quran give any evidence to back up its claim that it is the word of God, and not the thoughts of a man?
Yes indeed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just the question alone proves my point. I look forward to Onwar's next self-embarrassment.
|
stevecanuck
Member
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 05:57 pm |
|
onwaranupwar wrote: stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God - the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind, considered to be the recited literal and final revelation of God.
No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy which I've disproved by posting the results of a PEW poll that states only 50% of Muslims take the Qu'ran literally. You're just plain wrong
A "fantasy" shared by every Muslim I worked with in Egypt who took the time to discuss the quran with me (they were hoping for a conversion).
Now there is unequivocal evidence that you're right. Sweet Jesus, are you for real?
More evidence of either trolling or non-linearity. The definition of what the quran is, as given to me by my Egyptian Muslim coworkers, is dismissed out-of-hand despite the fact that it answers the question directly by those who having been living it their whole lives. He wants us to think that people with names like Saleh Abdulrahman are deluded and have spent their entire lives in error. These poor schmucks don't even know what their own religion means.
Only a troll would suggest that, then say, "Sweet Jesus, are you for real?" The use of "Jesus" in that is even more evidence.
None the less, it still provides for the opportunity to educate.
Troll on brother - I suppose any substitute for having a life is better than nothing.
|
stevecanuck
Member
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 11:29 pm |
|
I should have also included this from the above web site.
105. What position does the Holy Quran hold for Muslims?
The Holy Quran is the final and highest authority for Muslims on all matters. It is the fundamental source of the teachings of Islam. When determining whether a certain belief or practice is a part of Islam or not, the verdict of the Quran has the highest priority and must be accepted even if it goes against common practice or one's own wishes. If a Muslim differs with us regarding the meaning of a verse of the Quran, we must still respect his views if he gives arguments from the Holy Book in his support.
Last edited on Tue Aug 11th, 2009 11:30 pm by stevecanuck
|
Ae
Member
|
Posted: Wed Aug 12th, 2009 05:05 pm |
|
stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God - the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind, considered to be the recited literal and final revelation of God.
No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy which I've disproved by posting the results of a PEW poll that states only 50% of Muslims take the Qu'ran literally. You're just plain wrong
A "fantasy" shared by every Muslim I worked with in Egypt who took the time to discuss the quran with me (they were hoping for a conversion). Either you're doing a great job of embarrasing yourself, or you're just a troll having some fun.
That only 50% of American Muslims believe that is 100% irrelevant. They're supposed to believe it. I'm encouraged that so many don't.
OK, you tell us. What is the quran and how did it come to be?
Ummah, I know you're here hiding in the corner. Could you please tell these guys what the quran is? Thank you in advance.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân[/url]
Let me quote:
The Qur’an[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân#cite_note-0][1][/url] (Arabic: القرآن al-qur’ān, literally “the recitation”; also sometimes transliterated as Quran, Qur’ān, Koran, Alcoran or Al-Qur’ān) is the central religious text of Islam. Muslims believe the Qur’an to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind, and consider the original Arabic text to be the final revelation of God.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân#cite_note-Britannica-1][2][/url][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân#cite_note-2][3][/url][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân#cite_note-3][4][/url][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân#cite_note-4][5[/url]
http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-7.htm
Let me quote:
...the last revealed word of God....
This isn't a book of stories, proverbs, ideas, allegory, and poetry. This is a direct Get-Your-Pen-And-Write-What-I-Tell-You-To, from one angel to a Prophet.
Now, that some Muslims have taken on secular influences and have begun to take it that way is great. However, unlike with other religions they cannot easily claim that their intrepretation is correct because other common religious texts are not specifcially meant and culturally intended to be literal and this is made obvious by their format.
What you are advocating is that what you understand and what Muslims in educated nations have a 50% tendency towards is what Islam is. What you are arguing is Secularist pressure on a religion is that religion.
Further, you are arguing that Honour Killings are domestic violence. And they are.
They merely aren't simply domestic violence. They are religious violence. They are cultural brutality.
You want to argue that motivation doesn't matter. That you can fix something while never acknowledging what it is. Motivation does matter. Thought process matters. Cultural context matters. Differences are DEFINING.
Honour killings are a form of domestic violence. All honour killings are domestic violence. But not all domestic violence is an honour killing.
|
onwaranupwar
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2625 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 12th, 2009 06:07 pm |
|
stevecanuck wrote: Troll or not, Onwar provides a useful example of the non-linear thinker. In response to my claim that the quran is supposed to be believed by Muslims to be the direct word of God, he responds with a PEW poll result that shows only 50% of American Muslims believe that, then cites that as proof I'm wrong.
He seems to think that what people are expected to believe vs. what they actually believe is the same topic.
One of the easiest things in world to establish is what Muslims are expected to believe and what the quran is. I googled the question and got millions of hits. I randomly chose the following site (making sure it was a MUSLIM site).
http://www.muslim.org/islam/int-is5.htm
It has a Q&A section from which I extracted these:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
98. Is there any other notable distinction of the Holy Quran?
One that may be mentioned is that the Holy Quran tells us all about itself. From various places in it we learn that it is a Book called the Quran, a revelation from God, communicated to the Holy Prophet Muhammad, coming through the angel Gabriel, in the Arabic language.
103. What sort of subjects does the Holy Quran deal with?
An enormous range of topics. It tells us about God, His attributes, man's position in the universe, his aim in life and how to attain that aim, how we stand in relation to God and to our fellow-beings. It gives details of what one should believe and how it should be put into practice.
104. Does the Holy Quran give any evidence to back up its claim that it is the word of God, and not the thoughts of a man?
Yes indeed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just the question alone proves my point. I look forward to Onwar's next self-embarrassment.
Steve, either you're illiterate or you're purposefully ignoring my posts. I'm guessing the latter. I've posted facts that say the same thing about Christianity that you're saying about Islam. You won't accept it and the reason is that you have a hate on for Muslims that you have a powerful urge to infect other with through disinformation about this topic.
One of the differences between you and me is that I've actually read about different religions in some depth (compared to you anyway) , not just grabbed a few quotes from various sites online that prove a conclusion I've already arrived at. Another difference is that I'm completely neutral about all religions--they all suck equally. Insttead I judge people on a case by case basis. This is impossible for you because you're blinded by your own hatred of Islam which is mainly based on very limited personal experience--ie, your Egyptian buddies.
Your experience in Egypt with your Muslim buddies proves nothing except your inclination to harshly judge huge groups of people based on a limited personal experience. Feel free to choose that over research, scholarship and a larger grasp of the world around you if you must but understand that that's part of what defines you as a redneck.
As for the "troll" business: This thread was created by a troll who knows next to nothing about what he's talking about. At every step I've blown you out of the water with facts that you're ignored.For example, you're too dense or just completely unwilling to acknowledge the parallels between Christianity and Islam and that once again proves your bias (and your ignorance) A troll isn't someone who destroys someone else's case. A troll is someone like you who posts bullshi* that he can't back.
It's this simple, Steve. If your absurd assessment of Islam was true, that is, if the Qu'ran sanctions honour killings and all devout Muslims follow the Qu'ran slavishly, we would be seeing a hundred honour killings a year in this country alone because every day more and more young Muslims are developing a new relationship with Islam. Even with the little logic you possess you must be able to see this point.
You're a hater, Steve, and that's your business. Just don't expect the rest of us to buy into your bullshi* and sink to your level.
|
onwaranupwar
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jul 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2625 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 12th, 2009 06:28 pm |
|
Ae wrote:
Let me quote:
The Qur’an[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân#cite_note-0][1] (Arabic[/url]: القرآن al-qur’ān, literally “the recitation”; also sometimes transliterated as Quran, Qur’ān, Koran, Alcoran or Al-Qur’ān) is the central religious text of Islam. Muslims believe the Qur’an to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind, and consider the original Arabic text to be the final revelation of God.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân#cite_note-Britannica-1][2][/url][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân#cite_note-2][3][/url][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân#cite_note-3][4][/url][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurân#cite_note-4][5[/url]
http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-7.htm
Let me quote:
...the last revealed word of God....
This isn't a book of stories, proverbs, ideas, allegory, and poetry. This is a direct Get-Your-Pen-And-Write-What-I-Tell-You-To, from one angel to a Prophet.
Now, that some Muslims have taken on secular influences and have begun to take it that way is great. However, unlike with other religions they cannot easily claim that their intrepretation is correct because other common religious texts are not specifcially meant and culturally intended to be literal and this is made obvious by their format.
What you are advocating is that what you understand and what Muslims in educated nations have a 50% tendency towards is what Islam is. What you are arguing is Secularist pressure on a religion is that religion.
Further, you are arguing that Honour Killings are domestic violence. And they are.
They merely aren't simply domestic violence. They are religious violence. They are cultural brutality.
You want to argue that motivation doesn't matter. That you can fix something while never acknowledging what it is. Motivation does matter. Thought process matters. Cultural context matters. Differences are DEFINING.
Honour killings are a form of domestic violence. All honour killings are domestic violence. But not all domestic violence is an honour killing.
A huge number of Christians would say that you'd fry in hell for implying that the Bible is just "a book of stories, proverbs, ideas, allegory, and poetry." I've posted FACTS from a Gallup poll proving 30% of Americans think the Bible is the word of God to be taken and understood literally. A lot more believe that it is the indisuptable word of god that tells good Christians how to live.
Also, you've clearly never read the Qu'ran and don't know much about it because it is very much a book of parables and stories and poetry and an enormous number of Muslims view it as such, even those who take it as the literal word of God. Even Steve has called some of its content parables such as Surah 18. it has also inspired some of the greatest poets in the world--Rumi, for example and Sufism is a mystical faction of Islam that views almost nothing in the Qu'ran as literal.
But let's leave that behind for a moment. You get pretty tense in these debates (as I admit I do at times) but you're clearly a smart person with some original thoughts. so I want to pose this hypothetical question to you and see your answer to it.
Let's say that the Qu'ran did directly sanction honour killings and there was no debate about it. How exactly would this change our approach to combating honour killings? We know that the vast majority of Muslims do not commit honour killings. So what would change in the world if we knew that the Qu'ran said that all devout Muslims should kill disobedient children? How would this knowledge help us to prevent honour killings and what steps would we take to make this happen?
This is not a trick question. I'm not laying a trap for you. I would seriously like to hear your answer.
As for the quesion of how domestic violence is somehow separate from honour killings--one being secular and the other religious--I strongly disagree with you. Misogynists will look anywhere for justification for their hatred of women and misogyny runs deep in all cultures. All cultures, except maybe the Celts, have a long tradition of oppressing women and punishing them if they don't leave up to male expectations.
But that's another discussion. I'd appreciate it if you'd try to answer the question I posed above.
Last edited on Wed Aug 12th, 2009 06:30 pm by onwaranupwar
|
Current time is 01:14 pm | Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ...   |
|
|
|
|
