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stevecanuck
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 05:03 pm |
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onwaranupwar wrote: Ae wrote: Women are property to do with as you will. This is CLEAR in the Quran. If it's so clear, please provide the verses that state it.
2:223 - Your wife is as a tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when and how you will.
This verse is the basis for the go-ahead-and-rape-your-wife law.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 05:08 pm |
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onwaranupwar wrote: For Muslims the Qu'ran is the word of God, exactly the way the Bible is the word of God for Christians.
Nope. Wrong again.
The quran is PRESENTED as being the word of god. It says so itself. Never in the bible does it say, "this is god speaking".
The quran is a NARRATIVE BY GOD.
Big difference.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 05:15 pm |
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Here are a few tidbits from the bible championing the killing of non beleivers and urging the victors to rape their women. Funny thing too, the Christian bible says that a woman who has been raped deserves to be stoned and they don't mean on BC bud, Steve. Some things just aren't open to interpretation.
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
(Numbers 31:7-18)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Perhaps these attitudes have something to do with the fact that in our fine Christian country it was until about thirty years ago impossible to charge a man with raping his wife.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 05:22 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: For Muslims the Qu'ran is the word of God, exactly the way the Bible is the word of God for Christians.
Nope. Wrong again.
The quran is PRESENTED as being the word of god. It says so itself. Never in the bible does it say, "this is god speaking".
The quran is a NARRATIVE BY GOD.
Big difference.
No difference at all, Steve. Christians call the bible the living word of God. It is, to use the Christian term, God's plan for man. (notice the gender designation)
You and AE are keen on ignoring the cultural genocides that have been perpetrated in the name of God and justified by the Bible but they happened and they happened in this very country until not so long ago. Ask any First Nations person who was forced into a residential school and told how godless their race was.
AE will respond to this with some bullshi* about the Irish and you'll say "well, it isn't the literal word of god, etc., etc, etc" But again you're both missing the point by a mile. Despite exhorting men to kill non-believers and rape their wives, the bible itself is not an evil book. The societies that used it to justify their aims are another story. The same is true of the Qu'ran and political Islam. But you'll never figure that out.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 05:28 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: Ae wrote: Women are property to do with as you will. This is CLEAR in the Quran. If it's so clear, please provide the verses that state it.
2:223 - Your wife is as a tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when and how you will.
This verse is the basis for the go-ahead-and-rape-your-wife law.
What verse from the bible is responsible for the fact that in Canada women could not charge their husbands with rape until 1983 because they were considered the property of their husbands?
"Sexism in society and law permeated the Canadian rape law before 1983, which
reinforced the informal control of women and helped to perpetuate the ideological
premises of the traditional gender order (Los, 1994). First, the patriarchal basis
of marriage was protected when husbands had unlimited sexual access to their
wives. A man was presumed to have some right of property over his wife’s body.
Hence, marital rape was not recognized. Second, women were considered morally
underdeveloped, and a woman’s testimony under oath could not be trusted; it
alone could not convict the defendant. Rape complaints that were not made
immediately after the attack were invalidated. Third, a woman’s credibility
depended on her sexual reputation in that her previous sexual conduct could be
freely questioned. The complainant’s sexual conduct with men other than the
accused was considered important in establishing her consent. Finally, women’s
sexuality was defined by men’s sexuality in that the requirement of vaginal
penetration was the only standard with which a woman’s body could be sexually
violated in rape
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/Readings/CanadaRapeLaw.pdf
Last edited on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 05:33 pm by onwaranupwar
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Ae
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Posted: Sun Aug 16th, 2009 06:21 am |
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Your are quoting old testament. For which any and all Christians have the instant get out of that crap free card - conveniently called "Jesus."
Further, what you are doing is called a strawman argument. You cannot prove that what I or Mr.Canuck are saying is wrong, so instead you throw a straw man out. Oh Yeah! Well Look At THOSE guys! They're wrong TOO! All you need is a tin man and a lion. You can be the girl with the pigtails.
And again, this is awesome because you are not only reinforcing the "christ vs allah" paradigm that is being pushed by the extremist right wing by expecting that there are only two possible options but you are doing it to people who aren't Christian. Which is just amusing.
I can literally give you a declaration signed recently, about human rights, signed by almost every Muslim country that specifically states that they believe women are not equal, based on the Quran. But *YOU* know better. Even though you could not possibly find ANY surah that would back that up without significant twisting.
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Ae
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Posted: Sun Aug 16th, 2009 06:34 am |
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Honour killings indeed do exist in other societies that are not Muslim. I've mentioned the other one that is a very big offender already - Hinduism.
You want people to hold Islam to a different standard than other religions. This is not acceptable. If I would hold one group to a standard, I will damn well hold Islam too it as well.
I have quoted surah. I have mentioned the Cairo Declaration. I have given you exact quotation of why honour killings are permitted in these nations as said by their own parliaments.
You've done nothing but go "prove it." And I have. You on the other hand cannot prove your points, because your point is that secularism will essentially beat down Islam - but nothing actually in Islam proves your point. So you cannot go look or tell me or quote anything at all.
The information you link essentially is a white wash - just as you are performing - lots of pretty words that ALMOST mean what you are trying to prove. They don't actually say quite what you are trying to prove but the come Oh-so-close. But not quite.
Now - tell me do you want your great great granddaughter living as a blue burqua woman in Afghanistan? Are you really willing to beat the future of your daughter's daugther's daughters on thinking that what a BILLION people are living is wrong and the interpretation you are being sold by a couple of hundred is true? Really? That makes sense to you?
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Ae
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Posted: Sun Aug 16th, 2009 07:27 am |
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Now, let us just deal with Honour Killings as a specific type of violence. Even though you want it to be a theological discussion.
Disassociating the motive for the crime from the crime is in no way useful. It doesn't help the victims. It doesn't help the justice system. It doesn't help the case workers, or the therapists.
By ignoring the reason - the distinctive type of crime being commited - the only thing being helped is the people who want to pretend it doesn't exist. Aid and abetting the criminal.
Different types of crimes need different responses and demands. White washing the "why" away. That is what you want.
Your logic works with death in general. Hey, there is no difference between degrees of murder and manslaughter. Dead is dead, so let us just not look at why. Its all manslaughter, and let us leave it at that.
Last edited on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 07:31 am by Ae
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Mon Aug 17th, 2009 05:29 am |
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I'm going a vacation tomorrow so won't be able to continue this debacle.
I just want to say this: I never said that there weren't honor killings. I also never said that there isn't a disproportionate number of them in Islamic countries with repressive regimes. I agree that women suffer horribly in countries like Iran, Algeria and A-stan. And it isn't just from honor killings. It's a regime of fear against women.
What I'm saying is that screaming about how evil the Qu'ran is and how horrible Muslims are is not going to help oppression of women in these countries and it's not going to change the attitudes of men who create the socio/political/culture in which these women live and suffer. All it does is insult all Muslims, most of whom don't kill or anyone and stirs up baseless hatred towards them.
30 years ago it was legal to rape your wife in Canada. It was also legal and common practive to pay women considerably less for their work than men. 90 years ago women weren't allowed to vote. Sentences for killing and raping women were light (still are for killing or raping children) Women could be incarcerated on the suspicion immoral behaviour--like sleeping with a man out of wedlock or in a famous case in the fifties, for cohabiting with a man of another race. These things were virtually unquestioned at the time. I know. I was live during part of this period.
But somehow laws changed and women got the rights they deserved. It didn't happen by attacking the bible, the interpretation of which was/is the source of much misogyny and witholding rights from women in our society. It came about by a growing number of people seeing the injustice of this. In the same way, ending the oppression of Muslim women isn't going to happen by attacking the Qu'ran and endlessly bickering over what something does or doesn't mean. It's going to happen by carving rights for women in stone and punishing people who don't honor those rights. This is happening right now all over the world.
Every murderer of women in Canada came from immigrant stock and so did every man who abuses his wife. Singling out all Muslims as potential women killers because some Muslims commit these horrendous is ridiculous. If these men in Ontario killed these women, send them to jail for the rest of their lives, the same treatment we give (or should give) any man who kills women who won't obey them. They're all equally criminals. Just don't use these people as an example of what real Muslims are all about because it does nothing constructive or meaningful. It's just irrational hatred about Muslim culture: Islamophobia. And here's a list of crimes against Muslims in the US that shows exactly where that leads:
http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/islamophobia_incidents/0013129
The Qu'ran is just a book. It doesn't make men kill their wives anymore than the bible does, despite the lists of punishments the Christian God recommends for the wives and female children of non-believers. If it did, honor killilngs would happen in this country every day of the year because more and more women are asserting themselves while living by the tenets of the Qu'ran in a contemporary society. Support Muslims who work for human rights for Muslim women. Don't instigate hatred against them. They need all the help they can get.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Tue Aug 18th, 2009 12:10 am |
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onwaranupwar wrote: stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: Ae wrote: Women are property to do with as you will. This is CLEAR in the Quran. If it's so clear, please provide the verses that state it.
2:223 - Your wife is as a tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when and how you will.
This verse is the basis for the go-ahead-and-rape-your-wife law.
What verse from the bible ........
Let's review the bidding:
- Ae stated that women are considered property in Islam.
- Onwar said, "prove it".
- I took the liberty of providing a quote from the quran that does just that.
- Onwar changed the subject back to the bible.
This is either the response of a troll, or someone who wouldn't recognize a linear thought if it walked in his front door and invited itself to dinner.
A person who issues a challenge, then doesn't even recognize the attempt to meet that challenge doesn't deserve being included in the discussion.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 04:40 pm |
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Ae wrote:
You want people to hold Islam to a different standard than other religions.
This is not acceptable. If I would hold one group to a standard, I will damn well hold Islam too it as well.
I have quoted surah. I have mentioned the Cairo Declaration. I have given you exact quotation of why honour killings are permitted in these nations as said by their own parliaments.
You've done nothing but go "prove it." And I have. You on the other hand cannot prove your points, because your point is that secularism will essentially beat down Islam - but nothing actually in Islam proves your point. So you cannot go look or tell me or quote anything at all.
The information you link essentially is a white wash - just as you are performing - lots of pretty words that ALMOST mean what you are trying to prove. They don't actually say quite what you are trying to prove but the come Oh-so-close. But not quite.
Now - tell me do you want your great great granddaughter living as a blue burqua woman in Afghanistan? Are you really willing to beat the future of your daughter's daugther's daughters on thinking that what a BILLION people are living is wrong and the interpretation you are being sold by a couple of hundred is true? Really? That makes sense to you?
Your last three posts are filled with the usual bullshi* and lies about what I have or hadn't said. It's impossible to debate with you becuase of this tendency to put words in my mouth.
I'll leave you and Steve--the Alberta reactionay redneck faction of this forum--with this question:
How will attacking the Qu'ran help give Muslim women their rights?
Have I made this simple enough for you? Considering the vacuous rhetoric in the posts above I doubt it but give it a shot.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 04:55 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: Ae wrote: Women are property to do with as you will. This is CLEAR in the Quran. If it's so clear, please provide the verses that state it.
2:223 - Your wife is as a tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when and how you will.
This verse is the basis for the go-ahead-and-rape-your-wife law.
What verse from the bible ........
Let's review the bidding:
Ae stated that women are considered property in Islam. Onwar said, "prove it". I took the liberty of providing a quote from the quran that does just that. Onwar changed the subject back to the bible.
This is either the response of a troll, or someone who wouldn't recognize a linear thought if it walked in his front door and invited itself to dinner.
A person who issues a challenge, then doesn't even recognize the attempt to meet that challenge doesn't deserve being included in the discussion.
What is with you Albertans? Are you incapable of reading what is written or do you have a natural tendency to put words in people's mouths?
Here is the actual exchange between AE and me:
AE_ Women are property to do with as you will. This is CLEAR in the Quran. ONWAR If it's so clear, please provide the verses that state it.
I didn't say "prove it". I said provide them.
But that's a small point that's probably beyond your scope.
See if you can follow this, Steve. You're trying desperately to make the point that the dogma of the Qu'ran is unique to Islam. I've proved that it isn't. The bible is filled with the same kind of anti-woman dogma-- a lot more of it actually. This is inconvenient for you because it kills your flimsy argument in the water. But it's a fact and calling me a troll won't change it.
I had to laugh at the bit about linear thinking. You've been going in circles since your first post. You've studiously avoided any of the inconvenient truths that I've posted because your whole argument is so shaky it can't withstand even light rebuttal.
But I'd really appreciate it if you'd answer the question i've posed to AE. How will attacking the Qu'ran (and obliquely the Muslims who read it as their holy book) do anything to save the lives of woman murdered in honor killings? Think you can do this? Or does it matter to you? I don't think so. I think what matters to you is stirring up hatred against Muslims by any means neccessary. What this accomplishes I don't know but it's redneck shi* and therefore outside of my understanding.
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Ae
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Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 05:07 pm |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8216568.stm
What most Muslims believe, and why what Canadian and US Muslims are doing don't matter....and even many of them don't agree with onwar.
About giving women equality, and protection with laws and their "place" -
"It's a tiny minority of women here that wants this new law - the intellectuals. The poor and illiterate women of this country - the real Muslims - are against it," she added.
The real Muslims mind.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 05:29 pm |
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Ae wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8216568.stm
What most Muslims believe, and why what Canadian and US Muslims are doing don't matter....and even many of them don't agree with onwar.
About giving women equality, and protection with laws and their "place" -
"It's a tiny minority of women here that wants this new law - the intellectuals. The poor and illiterate women of this country - the real Muslims - are against it," she added.
The real Muslims mind.
Good old AE. You've cut your own throat but are too dim to realize it. I'll leave you to ponder it but I'll give you a little hint :the Qu'ran doesn't make women poor, uneducated and illiterate. Nor does a Muslim woman's movement in one Muslim country speak for all Muslims.
You can connect the rest of the dots on your own. It'll be a good exercise for you.
So now I'd like you to address the question I put to you a couple of post ago.
How does attacking the Qu'ran and villifying all Muslims help the oppression of Muslim women?
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 09:26 pm |
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I said this before, onwar, but I'll say it again:
If you want to talk about this, I'll answer every single question and challenge, but if you can't be civil, you're on your own.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 09:54 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: I said this before, onwar, but I'll say it again:
If you want to talk about this, I'll answer every single question and challenge, but if you can't be civil, you're on your own.
Well, that would be a change considering so far you've avoided virtually every challenge and question I've put to you.
You've also tried your damndest to control what can and can't be discussed in relation to this topic based on how much it interferes with your point. My discussing the bible is a prime example.
I've stated my position. Political Islam is oppressive to women in several countries and I'd like to see that changed.
But making the Qu'ran into the source of evil is not going to accomplish anything. Nor is villifying what you and AE refer to as "real Muslims." You seem unable to distinguish between fundamentalist Muslim groups like the Taliban and countless Muslims who see the Qu'ran as the word of God and have not and never will hurt anyone. That's a huge flaw in your argument (which is not that clear to me anyway.)
So it's pointless to continue this discussion.
But I'd still like to know how it is that you think castigating the Qu'ran and the people who view it as their holy book--ie Muslims like many of my neighbours here in North Vancouver-- is going to end violence against women in the culture of Islam.
I'd enjoy your explicating this but I doubt if you can or want to.
As far as being civil, it isn't my style. Deal with it or move on.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 09:54 pm |
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| double post Last edited on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 09:55 pm by onwaranupwar
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Thu Aug 27th, 2009 12:53 am |
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onwaranupwar wrote: As far as being civil, it isn't my style.
No 5h1t?
You ought to try it once. You might like it. You might also find that people will actually talk discuss things with you.
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Ae
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Posted: Thu Aug 27th, 2009 06:40 am |
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Onwar - ignoring what people hold so dear they will kill and be killed for it, in greater numbers than live in the first world, regardless of why they belive it, educated or not real or imagined, doesn't change that they do indeed believe it.
This isn't isolated. You cannot make it isolated by ignoring it and wagging your finger at me.
Currently, feminism and the first world can't do a damn thing about it. Currently, feminists in the First World are so busy pushing acceptance for 2% of the population that they cannot even attempt to do something about it. Because in order for them to get into the fray, they'd have to accept that Muslims the World over will not accept that. So they've left the other 3.25 billion women to do it themselves. Because in order to BE a feminist in their books one must to accept that. And currently they apparently get to define who and what suffragettes are and get to be. Even if I agree, this ideology is so assbackwards to the cause of suffrage for women in the World that it astounds me that they can justify leaving so many women "out of the club."
Anyways. Vilifying doens't help. Pretending that something doesn't exist when it does doesn't either.
You want to pretend that one can throw around pretty flowers and be loving and it'll all be okay. We can all pretend that all domestic violence is the same. And all memes are the same. That motivations don't matter.
And you can pretend that being the couple of hundred millions of women who currently enjoy a fairly new version of human rights should just accept cultural change to swing the other way because that's just how things go when the other several billion feel like moving in and removing it.
I'm not so blaise or supremist about my position, and the sanctity of the rights my daughters and great great granddaugthers will enjoy, that I so easily dismiss obvious cracks in the systems. You apparently are willing to just shrug and assume that all is well and cannot change while at the same time believing that cultural change that allows the women in your line to be commodities is just the way of the World. Lovely. Really.
How can you POSSIBLY miss the immense amount of elitist PRIVILEGE your positions indicate? You have the gual to lecture me about my positions, when you're willing to trade other people's future rights as if you have some superior right to do so because your...left? a man? married to a non-white? have an assumed pedantic hypothetical nonspecific view of culture and rights?
I'm not so willing to delude myself. What people in the Muslim nations think about women is very clear. They've signed in laws, written books, created entire cultures based on it, and even created a multinational Declaration specifically to push back on the Universal Human Rights Declaration.
You can even watch documentaries created HERE in Canada by Muslim women trying to challenge the fact that they are segregated in their Mosques, and see the men telling them straight up how it is.
They aren't hiding it. It's a MULTINATIONAL DECLARATION. Not from the Iron Age. Not from the pre-industrial age. No. Writen like 2 year ago. To challenge UN Declaration of Human Rights. Specifically. I cannot imagine how much more direct you need them to be to challenge your bubblegum and flowers fantasy.
You want me to think that none of that matters. Because....well....its messy, and impolite.
I think that I'm going to believe the actions of a BILLION other people before I'm going to be convinced by your naughty finger wagging.
Cultures may come and go. But I'm not willing to be your freaking gamble buddy.
Last edited on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 06:42 am by Ae
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Aug 27th, 2009 08:24 pm |
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Ae wrote: Onwar - ignoring what people hold so dear they will kill and be killed for it, in greater numbers than live in the first world, regardless of why they belive it, educated or not real or imagined, doesn't change that they do indeed believe it.
This isn't isolated. You cannot make it isolated by ignoring it and wagging your finger at me.
Currently, feminism and the first world can't do a damn thing about it. Currently, feminists in the First World are so busy pushing acceptance for 2% of the population that they cannot even attempt to do something about it. Because in order for them to get into the fray, they'd have to accept that Muslims the World over will not accept that. So they've left the other 3.25 billion women to do it themselves. Because in order to BE a feminist in their books one must to accept that. And currently they apparently get to define who and what suffragettes are and get to be. Even if I agree, this ideology is so assbackwards to the cause of suffrage for women in the World that it astounds me that they can justify leaving so many women "out of the club."
Anyways. Vilifying doens't help. Pretending that something doesn't exist when it does doesn't either.
You want to pretend that one can throw around pretty flowers and be loving and it'll all be okay. We can all pretend that all domestic violence is the same. And all memes are the same. That motivations don't matter.
And you can pretend that being the couple of hundred millions of women who currently enjoy a fairly new version of human rights should just accept cultural change to swing the other way because that's just how things go when the other several billion feel like moving in and removing it.
I'm not so blaise or supremist about my position, and the sanctity of the rights my daughters and great great granddaugthers will enjoy, that I so easily dismiss obvious cracks in the systems. You apparently are willing to just shrug and assume that all is well and cannot change while at the same time believing that cultural change that allows the women in your line to be commodities is just the way of the World. Lovely. Really.
How can you POSSIBLY miss the immense amount of elitist PRIVILEGE your positions indicate? You have the gual to lecture me about my positions, when you're willing to trade other people's future rights as if you have some superior right to do so because your...left? a man? married to a non-white? have an assumed pedantic hypothetical nonspecific view of culture and rights?
I'm not so willing to delude myself. What people in the Muslim nations think about women is very clear. They've signed in laws, written books, created entire cultures based on it, and even created a multinational Declaration specifically to push back on the Universal Human Rights Declaration.
You can even watch documentaries created HERE in Canada by Muslim women trying to challenge the fact that they are segregated in their Mosques, and see the men telling them straight up how it is.
They aren't hiding it. It's a MULTINATIONAL DECLARATION. Not from the Iron Age. Not from the pre-industrial age. No. Writen like 2 year ago. To challenge UN Declaration of Human Rights. Specifically. I cannot imagine how much more direct you need them to be to challenge your bubblegum and flowers fantasy.
You want me to think that none of that matters. Because....well....its messy, and impolite.
I think that I'm going to believe the actions of a BILLION other people before I'm going to be convinced by your naughty finger wagging.
Cultures may come and go. But I'm not willing to be your freaking gamble buddy.
The above is not even worth replying to. It's drivel that has nothing to do with anything I've said and is completely loaded with misinformation and lies. A perfect example of your idiotic hyperbole is this "I think that I'm going to believe the actions of a BILLION other people before I'm going to be convinced by your naughty finger wagging." So now you're saying that you disapprove of the actions of all Muslims in the world and think that everyone is a danger to your existence? I once thought you were well meaning and naive. But now I think you're an idiot.
I'll say it for the last time. Your spewing of hatred and ignorance about Islam has nothing to do with righting a situation that I've said--contrary to your bullshi* lies--a dozen times that I detest.
We all know that political Islamic regimes are oppressive to women. Repeat: we all know that Islamic regimes are oppressive to women and unlike you some of us have known it for a long long time.
But the people who ARE changing it are not small minded hate mongering rednecks like you. They're human rights activists, they're people who have gone to work in places like A-stan to help those folks get with the program. They're members of our military. They're Muslims in this country who have risked death and torture returning to A-stan and Iran to work for women's rights. Persian Muslim Canadians are one of the strongest forces for change in Iran. But I wouldn't expect you to know this. To busy identifying all one billion Muslims in the world as fiends and terrorists
These people are actually accomplishing something besides peddling your hysterical Islamophobia which has helped no one and never will.
You're no feminist and don't know what a feminist is. No real feminist separates violence against women by culture and religion. No thinking person does either because they know it's counter productive in ending it. .
Anyway, continue to spread lies about how disgusting and violent all one billion Muslims in the world are. But to pull it off you'd better entrench yourself even more deeply in your shallow little fantasy because the fact is that things in Islam are changing and the people who are causing those changes are for the large part Muslims. This seriously interferes with your little dream but do like you do with all other facts: ignore them and sleep well.
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