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Ae
Member
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Posted: Tue Oct 6th, 2009 06:21 pm |
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The fact that every party seems to think that they can score points with this makes me very concerned about the lack of statemen we have in politics right now.
This violates the presumption innonence.
One's mere existence in a vehicle is not sufficient reasonability to force a test.
It requires self-incrimination - lacking any basis for it.
That it might save 500 lives a year (supposedly) is not sufficient reason to repeal the entire basis of our legal system for 33 million people.
They take riding the back of a popular common cause - the elimination of drunk driving - WAY too far.
That not one of these politicians thought to put the basis of our entire legal system of individual rights before this bunch of pandering for popularity is disgusting.
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Eyeless
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 27th, 2009 |
| Location: | Ontario Canada |
| Posts: | 293 |
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Posted: Tue Oct 6th, 2009 08:31 pm |
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So...the Constitution...?
Ugh, never mind.
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stevecanuck
Member
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Posted: Tue Oct 6th, 2009 09:13 pm |
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Ae wrote: The fact that every party seems to think that they can score points with this makes me very concerned about the lack of statemen we have in politics right now.
This violates the presumption innonence.
One's mere existence in a vehicle is not sufficient reasonability to force a test.
It requires self-incrimination - lacking any basis for it.
That it might save 500 lives a year (supposedly) is not sufficient reason to repeal the entire basis of our legal system for 33 million people.
They take riding the back of a popular common cause - the elimination of drunk driving - WAY too far.
That not one of these politicians thought to put the basis of our entire legal system of individual rights before this bunch of pandering for popularity is disgusting.
This is just the next logical step from random check-stops. In a way, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.
Ok everyone, it's time to put on your "I'm a Canadian - walk all over me" tee-shirts.
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zonnebloem
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Posted: Tue Oct 6th, 2009 10:52 pm |
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| If you're driving a car you can be tested on the use of alcohol. Makes common sense to me. Is driving under influence not illegal then in Canada?
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Eyeless
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Posted: Tue Oct 6th, 2009 10:54 pm |
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zonnebloem wrote: If you're driving a car you can be tested on the use of alcohol. Makes common sense to me. Is driving under influence not illegal then in Canada? It is. But so are random searches, unless the police have reason to believe you in particular are committing a crime.
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Mystery Mustache Man
Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 03:12 am |
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zonnebloem wrote: If you're driving a car you can be tested on the use of alcohol. Makes common sense to me. Is driving under influence not illegal then in Canada? This is more of an inconvenience to anyone. You're driving just fine on your way to work and BAM cops wanna do random searches for no good plausible reasons.
I don't think this will hold up.
In either way, this is similar to a gestapo...
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zonnebloem
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Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 07:20 am |
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Mystery Mustache Man schreef:
zonnebloem wrote: If you're driving a car you can be tested on the use of alcohol. Makes common sense to me. Is driving under influence not illegal then in Canada? This is more of an inconvenience to anyone. You're driving just fine on your way to work and BAM cops wanna do random searches for no good plausible reasons.
I don't think this will hold up.
In either way, this is similar to a gestapo...
Well road blocks for a routine alcohol control, where everyone has to take a test, are not uncommon here. How else do you want to enforce that people drive absolutely without drinking any alcohol? You can not always see it immediately if some has had a drink.
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Mystery Mustache Man
Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 04:27 pm |
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You could input an oscillation device in the cars so when the driver is drunk, he doesn't swerve, the car slows to a maximum and signals authorities; BAM!
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Ae
Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 05:14 pm |
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zonnebloem wrote: Mystery Mustache Man schreef:
zonnebloem wrote: If you're driving a car you can be tested on the use of alcohol. Makes common sense to me. Is driving under influence not illegal then in Canada? This is more of an inconvenience to anyone. You're driving just fine on your way to work and BAM cops wanna do random searches for no good plausible reasons.
I don't think this will hold up.
In either way, this is similar to a gestapo...
Well road blocks for a routine alcohol control, where everyone has to take a test, are not uncommon here. How else do you want to enforce that people drive absolutely without drinking any alcohol? You can not always see it immediately if some has had a drink.
People are willing to bend to be reasonably accomodating. Even when pulled over at a random check point, there must a a reasonable reason to perform a test. That is the smell or admission of the consumption alcohol.
Presuming all time that I'm guilty on the basis of my driving a car is an unacceptable breech of individual liberties.
The EU seems to be okay with this. I am not. It is not reasonable to presume the guilt of 33 million people on the basis of a couple of hundred incidents a year.
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Great White
Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 06:53 pm |
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Far too many Canadians are accepting of the government slowly stripping away our civil rights, one by one, in the name of "The Greater Good"
They are too dim to realize that when you let them get away with it once, they'll just keep on going.
This just another example.
And if you think it'll stop here, you've got another think comin'
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Realitycheck
Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 11:12 pm |
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Man! All the chicken little's running around and not one bit of sky falling!
This program has been in use in Australia and New Zealand for over a decade and resulted in something like an 35% decrease in deaths and injuries in the first year.
If you check around on the internet, I somehow doubt you will find that either country is in the thrall of a jack-booted government as a result.
Cops figure they catch fewer than 10% of drunk drivers. It is estimated that at any given time there thousands of impaired drivers on the roads.
If such random stops can save even one life and or person from critical, life-changing injuries, it is worth it.
For those of you who disagree, I'd like to see you forced to be the person to break the news to the parents or children of someone murdered by a drunk.
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Great White
Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 11:18 pm |
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Thanks for proving my point RC.
Strip our rights for the Greater good,
As long as that OK with you, I guess that's all that matters.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2009 02:21 am |
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Realitycheck wrote: Man! All the chicken little's running around and not one bit of sky falling!
This program has been in use in Australia and New Zealand for over a decade and resulted in something like an 35% decrease in deaths and injuries in the first year.
If you check around on the internet, I somehow doubt you will find that either country is in the thrall of a jack-booted government as a result.
Cops figure they catch fewer than 10% of drunk drivers. It is estimated that at any given time there thousands of impaired drivers on the roads.
If such random stops can save even one life and or person from critical, life-changing injuries, it is worth it.
For those of you who disagree, I'd like to see you forced to be the person to break the news to the parents or children of someone murdered by a drunk.
Agreed. And the thing is that cops have always pulled over people they suspect of drinking and driving and administered sobriety tests. Nothing new there. Drinking and driving is a serious problem that isn't taken seriously enough. And as RC points out checking people to see if they're sober enough to drive isn't exactly an indication of a facistic attack on people's rights.
Next step should be to start handing out serious jail time to repeat DWI offenders and come down like a shi* storm on first timers as well. Automatic loss of licence for a couple of years might put the fear of god into these idiots.
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Realitycheck
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2009 02:44 am |
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Makes one wonder if GW might be one of those worried about getting checked.
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TenaciousC
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2009 04:09 am |
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What's laughable out of all this is that it seems as though that some of you don't think this is happening already! Police will stop and question whoever they want about whatever they want. We have a legal system that puts unprecidented control into the hands of a certain few that don't need higher education to carry and use side weapons.
If you think that for one second the police always stop people out of suspision, you're delusional. They'll stop you just because they can. We lost our civil rights a long time ago and it just so happens that some guy or girl who decides to wear a badge can RUIN someones life becuase they are having a bad day or don't like red heads.
The only issue I have with this bill is that it puts more power into the hands of the police and takes it away from the judicial system. Police need to be held accountable for their actions, but with their Unions they have become very politically influential.
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Realitycheck
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2009 09:00 pm |
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Ya got red hair TC? Careful some of that falling sky doesn't hit you, sounds like another head injury may be dangerous.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2009 09:27 pm |
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TenaciousC wrote: What's laughable out of all this is that it seems as though that some of you don't think this is happening already! Police will stop and question whoever they want about whatever they want. We have a legal system that puts unprecidented control into the hands of a certain few that don't need higher education to carry and use side weapons.
If you think that for one second the police always stop people out of suspision, you're delusional. They'll stop you just because they can. We lost our civil rights a long time ago and it just so happens that some guy or girl who decides to wear a badge can RUIN someones life becuase they are having a bad day or don't like red heads.
The only issue I have with this bill is that it puts more power into the hands of the police and takes it away from the judicial system. Police need to be held accountable for their actions, but with their Unions they have become very politically influential.
There's no question that some police abuse the power that they have and push its limits. But drunk drivers ruin a lot more lives than cops do by a big, big margin.
Also, in what way does this take away power from the judicial system? Cops have always been able to take away peoples' licences at the scene if somebody can't pass a sobriety test. But that's the extent of their power. It still takes the judicial system to levy punishment.
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zonnebloem
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Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2009 11:17 pm |
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Great White schreef:
Thanks for proving my point RC.
Strip our rights for the Greater good,
As long as that OK with you, I guess that's all that matters.
Driving is not a right, it's a privilege. You get a license to drive after you have shown yourself responsible and knowledgeable enough to drive. The license can be revoked too. Again, driving is a privilege.
And besides that, I don't understand what so bad about road checks. Apart from alcohol tests there are also road blocks to check whether everything about the cars is technically all right, if they are insured, etcetera.
It makes the roads safer to use for all for a small inconvenience so now and then.
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Realitycheck
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2009 12:04 am |
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I can't help but believe those who squeal loudest about such things are those most likely to be caught doing such things and therefore have the most to loose.
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Eyeless
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 27th, 2009 |
| Location: | Ontario Canada |
| Posts: | 293 |
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Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2009 06:22 am |
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TenaciousC wrote: What's laughable out of all this is that it seems as though that some of you don't think this is happening already! Police will stop and question whoever they want about whatever they want. We have a legal system that puts unprecidented control into the hands of a certain few that don't need higher education to carry and use side weapons.
If you think that for one second the police always stop people out of suspision, you're delusional. They'll stop you just because they can. We lost our civil rights a long time ago and it just so happens that some guy or girl who decides to wear a badge can RUIN someones life becuase they are having a bad day or don't like red heads.
The only issue I have with this bill is that it puts more power into the hands of the police and takes it away from the judicial system. Police need to be held accountable for their actions, but with their Unions they have become very politically influential.
I honestly don't care so much about individual officers violating the constitution, as our own Parliament legitimizing such violations. That's a bad precedent.
We can't just bend the constitution because of how we feel about drunk driving.
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