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c2c
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 04:41 am |
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When I first heard this story on the news my first set of thoughts was "wow" that is really some kind of tribute... meaningful and moving.
But after a fashion I also got to thinking this. On September 11, 2001 over three thousand people were brutally murdered by an act of violence that shook the world and our country to the core. Now, eight years later we honor those murders by using a portion of the World Trade Center's Twin Towers to build an instrument of military value.
Now certainly if I am a serviceman on board that ship I would gain an additional strength of purpose and drive with such steel transporting troops for the protection of our nation. But in the bigger picture do we honor this horrible murder not with an instrument built for peace but for war above all other purposes that this ship may serve?
Just a thought. An honor to be certain but have we honored the dead with a sense of revenge or a sense of never again when we use the steel that resulted from that murder to underscore that from the rubble of a violent act will rise an instrument whose primary purpose is also one of violence?
I will stand in awe of this vessel and it's steel and it will move me deeply, but in a wider picture view.....?
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Mazel Schlimazel
Member
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 07:08 pm |
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c2c wrote: When I first heard this story on the news my first set of thoughts was "wow" that is really some kind of tribute... meaningful and moving.
But after a fashion I also got to thinking this. On September 11, 2001 over three thousand people were brutally murdered by an act of violence that shook the world and our country to the core. Now, eight years later we honor those murders by using a portion of the World Trade Center's Twin Towers to build an instrument of military value.
Now certainly if I am a serviceman on board that ship I would gain an additional strength of purpose and drive with such steel transporting troops for the protection of our nation. But in the bigger picture do we honor this horrible murder not with an instrument built for peace but for war above all other purposes that this ship may serve?
Just a thought. An honor to be certain but have we honored the dead with a sense of revenge or a sense of never again when we use the steel that resulted from that murder to underscore that from the rubble of a violent act will rise an instrument whose primary purpose is also one of violence?
I will stand in awe of this vessel and it's steel and it will move me deeply, but in a wider picture view.....?
Yes, you make sense c2c... Thanks for the input.
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Gungadin
Member
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 08:18 pm |
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Oldsalt wrote: George Aligator wrote: That a few tons of steel picked out of the landfill where the WTC was dumped have been used to make a piece of the bow of this ship is a clever bit of propaganda that shows what dupes the American voters are.
No matter what recycled junk the ship is built from, it is an expensive and unnecessary addition to an already bloated and over-priced military which has not only failed to catch the folks who blew up the buildings, it is failing to prop up the tottering American empire.
Had the millions wasted and the millions more to be wasted in building and deploying this unnecessary bit of military hardware been invested in modern manufacturing technology, research, education or public health, we might have seen some return on the expenditure.
Instead, all that investment will do nothing to make us stronger and the ship will continue to consume our substance until it is finally broken up for scrap and sold to the Chinese, who will make it into automobiles etc. to sell back to us.
We are suckers!
GA. Tell your sad, selfish, disengenous story above to the Relatives and Friends of everyone who died on September 11th, 2001. I'm sure you'll meet plenty of equally labeled suckers there...to join you in your Ignorance.
He's actually entirely correct - Uplifting as the story is, it's a propaganda trick. The navy really does not need more battleships.
As propaganda goes, it IS pretty awesome, though. If Osama Bin Laden still lives, they should catch him and fire him from one of the main guns.
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Gungadin
Member
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 08:19 pm |
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c2c wrote: When I first heard this story on the news my first set of thoughts was "wow" that is really some kind of tribute... meaningful and moving.
But after a fashion I also got to thinking this. On September 11, 2001 over three thousand people were brutally murdered by an act of violence that shook the world and our country to the core. Now, eight years later we honor those murders by using a portion of the World Trade Center's Twin Towers to build an instrument of military value.
Now certainly if I am a serviceman on board that ship I would gain an additional strength of purpose and drive with such steel transporting troops for the protection of our nation. But in the bigger picture do we honor this horrible murder not with an instrument built for peace but for war above all other purposes that this ship may serve?
Just a thought. An honor to be certain but have we honored the dead with a sense of revenge or a sense of never again when we use the steel that resulted from that murder to underscore that from the rubble of a violent act will rise an instrument whose primary purpose is also one of violence?
I will stand in awe of this vessel and it's steel and it will move me deeply, but in a wider picture view.....?
I salute you.
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loxy3
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 08:26 pm |
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c2c wrote: When I first heard this story on the news my first set of thoughts was "wow" that is really some kind of tribute... meaningful and moving.
But after a fashion I also got to thinking this. On September 11, 2001 over three thousand people were brutally murdered by an act of violence that shook the world and our country to the core. Now, eight years later we honor those murders by using a portion of the World Trade Center's Twin Towers to build an instrument of military value.
Now certainly if I am a serviceman on board that ship I would gain an additional strength of purpose and drive with such steel transporting troops for the protection of our nation. But in the bigger picture do we honor this horrible murder not with an instrument built for peace but for war above all other purposes that this ship may serve?
Just a thought. An honor to be certain but have we honored the dead with a sense of revenge or a sense of never again when we use the steel that resulted from that murder to underscore that from the rubble of a violent act will rise an instrument whose primary purpose is also one of violence?
I will stand in awe of this vessel and it's steel and it will move me deeply, but in a wider picture view.....?
a weapon of violence? The USS New York is an amphibious transport dock ship.
And c2c is that what you think of all our military, that their only purpose is to be violent? What about protection from harm? Just what the Towers needed that day.
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c2c
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 08:39 pm |
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loxy3 wrote: c2c wrote: When I first heard this story on the news my first set of thoughts was "wow" that is really some kind of tribute... meaningful and moving.
But after a fashion I also got to thinking this. On September 11, 2001 over three thousand people were brutally murdered by an act of violence that shook the world and our country to the core. Now, eight years later we honor those murders by using a portion of the World Trade Center's Twin Towers to build an instrument of military value.
Now certainly if I am a serviceman on board that ship I would gain an additional strength of purpose and drive with such steel transporting troops for the protection of our nation. But in the bigger picture do we honor this horrible murder not with an instrument built for peace but for war above all other purposes that this ship may serve?
Just a thought. An honor to be certain but have we honored the dead with a sense of revenge or a sense of never again when we use the steel that resulted from that murder to underscore that from the rubble of a violent act will rise an instrument whose primary purpose is also one of violence?
I will stand in awe of this vessel and it's steel and it will move me deeply, but in a wider picture view.....?
a weapon of violence? The USS New York is an amphibious transport dock ship.
And c2c is that what you think of all our military, that their only purpose is to be violent? What about protection from harm? Just what the Towers needed that day.
I made it very clear in my post my feelings on the actions of the military when I wrote;
"Now certainly if I am a serviceman on board that ship I would gain an additional strength of purpose and drive with such steel transporting troops for the protection of our nation"
The vessel is being used to transport our hero troops and their equipment for expeditionary warfare. It was not built to transport bunnies.
Now, do you have a comment on the actual spine of my post? Your thoughts on that would be welcome.
Last edited on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 08:42 pm by c2c
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loxy3
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 08:47 pm |
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c2c wrote: loxy3 wrote: c2c wrote: When I first heard this story on the news my first set of thoughts was "wow" that is really some kind of tribute... meaningful and moving.
But after a fashion I also got to thinking this. On September 11, 2001 over three thousand people were brutally murdered by an act of violence that shook the world and our country to the core. Now, eight years later we honor those murders by using a portion of the World Trade Center's Twin Towers to build an instrument of military value.
Now certainly if I am a serviceman on board that ship I would gain an additional strength of purpose and drive with such steel transporting troops for the protection of our nation. But in the bigger picture do we honor this horrible murder not with an instrument built for peace but for war above all other purposes that this ship may serve?
Just a thought. An honor to be certain but have we honored the dead with a sense of revenge or a sense of never again when we use the steel that resulted from that murder to underscore that from the rubble of a violent act will rise an instrument whose primary purpose is also one of violence?
I will stand in awe of this vessel and it's steel and it will move me deeply, but in a wider picture view.....?
a weapon of violence? The USS New York is an amphibious transport dock ship.
And c2c is that what you think of all our military, that their only purpose is to be violent? What about protection from harm? Just what the Towers needed that day.
I made it very clear in my post my feelings on the actions of the military when I wrote;
"Now certainly if I am a serviceman on board that ship I would gain an additional strength of purpose and drive with such steel transporting troops for the protection of our nation"
The vessel is being used to transport our hero troops and their equipment for expeditionary warfare. It was not built to transport bunnies.
Now, do you have a comment on the actual spine of my post? Your thoughts on that would be welcome.
Sure I'll comment. I feel differently than you do. Just as I felt I had made that clear in the spine of my post.
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George Aligator
Member
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 10:00 pm |
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| Bin Laden is sunning himself poolside at the Peshawar Hilton. The USS New York is too big to fit in the hotel pool. Another giant Pentagon boondoggle -- welfare for the fat cats of the military industrial complex and make-work jobs for low-skill swabbies like OldSalt. A total waste of money by a country that is broker than Afghanistan. The American taxpayers are suckered again. I don't care if they made the damn steel from the nails of the True Cross, the project is a total waste.
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Black_Sheep
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 10:09 pm |
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George Aligator wrote: Bin Laden is sunning himself poolside at the Peshawar Hilton. The USS New York is too big to fit in the hotel pool. Another giant Pentagon boondoggle -- welfare for the fat cats of the military industrial complex and make-work jobs for low-skill swabbies like OldSalt. A total waste of money by a country that is broker than Afghanistan. The American taxpayers are suckered again. I don't care if they made the damn steel from the nails of the True Cross, the project is a total waste.
At least an amphibious transport dock ship has some sort of tangible purpose and definitive benefit to America's military...
Now, the so-called "war on poverty"... that's what I'd call a total waste! How many trillions on that one for absolutely no benefit, eh?
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McRocket
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 10:09 pm |
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Gungadin wrote: He's actually entirely correct - Uplifting as the story is, it's a propaganda trick. The navy really does not need more battleships.
As propaganda goes, it IS pretty awesome, though. If Osama Bin Laden still lives, they should catch him and fire him from one of the main guns.
That's going to be a bit difficult without a BIG meat slicer.
The biggest gun onboard the New York is a 30 mm machine gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_New_York_(LPD-21)
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McRocket
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 10:10 pm |
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George Aligator wrote: Bin Laden is sunning himself poolside at the Peshawar Hilton. The USS New York is too big to fit in the hotel pool. Another giant Pentagon boondoggle -- welfare for the fat cats of the military industrial complex and make-work jobs for low-skill swabbies like OldSalt. A total waste of money by a country that is broker than Afghanistan. The American taxpayers are suckered again. I don't care if they made the damn steel from the nails of the True Cross, the project is a total waste.
Agreed.
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TR1985
Member
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 10:36 pm |
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loxy3 wrote:
Sure I'll comment. I feel differently than you do. Just as I felt I had made that clear in the spine of my post.
You and George would make an excellent couple.
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Mazel Schlimazel
Member
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 11:29 pm |
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TR1985 wrote: loxy3 wrote:
Sure I'll comment. I feel differently than you do. Just as I felt I had made that clear in the spine of my post.
You and George would make an excellent couple.
lol
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robertr2000
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 12:41 am |
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Never Forget
![[usa]](/forums/themes/default/usa.gif)
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robertr2000
Member
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 12:47 am |
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Gungadin wrote: Oldsalt wrote: George Aligator wrote: That a few tons of steel picked out of the landfill where the WTC was dumped have been used to make a piece of the bow of this ship is a clever bit of propaganda that shows what dupes the American voters are.
No matter what recycled junk the ship is built from, it is an expensive and unnecessary addition to an already bloated and over-priced military which has not only failed to catch the folks who blew up the buildings, it is failing to prop up the tottering American empire.
Had the millions wasted and the millions more to be wasted in building and deploying this unnecessary bit of military hardware been invested in modern manufacturing technology, research, education or public health, we might have seen some return on the expenditure.
Instead, all that investment will do nothing to make us stronger and the ship will continue to consume our substance until it is finally broken up for scrap and sold to the Chinese, who will make it into automobiles etc. to sell back to us.
We are suckers!
GA. Tell your sad, selfish, disengenous story above to the Relatives and Friends of everyone who died on September 11th, 2001. I'm sure you'll meet plenty of equally labeled suckers there...to join you in your Ignorance.
He's actually entirely correct - Uplifting as the story is, it's a propaganda trick. The navy really does not need more battleships.
As propaganda goes, it IS pretty awesome, though. If Osama Bin Laden still lives, they should catch him and fire him from one of the main guns.
"If Osama Bin Laden still lives"
No, Bin Laden hasn't been Alive sense December 2001.
Hooray!!!%$^& 
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AlterEgo
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 01:42 am |
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McRocket wrote: AlterEgo wrote: George Aligator wrote: That a few tons of steel picked out of the landfill where the WTC was dumped have been used to make a piece of the bow of this ship is a clever bit of propaganda that shows what dupes the American voters are.
No matter what recycled junk the ship is built from, it is an expensive and unnecessary addition to an already bloated and over-priced military which has not only failed to catch the folks who blew up the buildings, it is failing to prop up the tottering American empire.
Had the millions wasted and the millions more to be wasted in building and deploying this unnecessary bit of military hardware been invested in modern manufacturing technology, research, education or public health, we might have seen some return on the expenditure.
Instead, all that investment will do nothing to make us stronger and the ship will continue to consume our substance until it is finally broken up for scrap and sold to the Chinese, who will make it into automobiles etc. to sell back to us.
We are suckers!
![[fallingdown]](/forums/themes/default/laughing.gif)
Lets review. Because of the impotence, and incompetence of the Clinton administration, 3000 people died on Sep. 11, 2001, less than 8 months after George Bush took office. Since then, no American has died on American soil because of a terrorist act.
Why? Ships like this are now being employed to do what they were designed to do, protect American soil.
The purpose of our military, be it Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force or specfor is not as you say to: "prop up the tottering American empire". It is to protect this country from outside threats. This ship is no more than a piece of equipment that is used by the people who actually protect this country. And those people deserve the best equipment we can supply them with to accomplish that job.
Apparently, you'd like to see our volunteer military using second hand equipment with Korean war technology. Why don't you try to justify that to any current military parent.
And if the American culture is tottering it's because of dog piles like you who vote for ass hats like Obama, Harry Greed, Nancy Pilousy, etc. who's only purpose in life is to destroy this unique country.
We're not suckers George, you're an idiot.
So you are saying that the ONLY way to keep America safe from terrorism is to spend more then the rest of the world COMBINED on it's military? Because that's what is happening now. And the military was by far the most powerful in the world on 9/11/01 and the attacks still occured.
I believe the reason there has been no attacks on American soil since then is that the terrorists that are running it do not want to attack - they simply don't have to. The whole purpose of 9/11 (imo) was to draw America into the Middle East where their resources and personnel could be wasted in fruitless missions that did nothing but act as recruitment fodder for more terrorists. The terrorist head honchos wanted to create another Vietnam that would bleed America white. And they are succeeding - probably beyond their dreams. More Americans have died in Iraq then died in the 9/11 attacks. Many more have been permanently wounded (both physically and emotionally) and hundreds and hundreds of billions have been spent. And bin Laden has still not been captured or his death confirmed (if he is dead). That is a success?
Ask Europeans who know WAY more about terrorism then America does. They realize that there is NO way to stop ALL terrorist attacks if enough terrorists want to blow things up. So they have learned to live with it. Put more and better resources into policing and intelligence and try to keep the attacks to a minimum.
And look at their public? Do they freak out after every attack? No; they hate it, but they accept that they cannot be completely stopped 100%. So they leave it to the police/intelligence and don't go flipping out, sending their militaries all over the world in a vain attempt to stop it (other then Tony Blair's over-reactions). They have put up with it for decades and they know the score. Americans were more-or-less new at it on 9/11. It was a big shock to the system (of course, it didn't help that the first time was a HUGE attack in terms of damage).
Americans assumed it could not happen to them. And U.S. security/intelligence services did - to an extent - also. But 911 could not happen today. The security loophole has been closed. But lesser attacks could - no matter how many San Antonio-class amphibious transport docks (what U.S.S. New York is) they build.
Timothy McVeigh should have proven that there is NO way to stop terrorism completely, 100%. It is impossible.
And I think using the military to try and prevent terorism is like using a hand grenade when a club is probably better.
How many times have the Euros been attacked since 9/11? Remember the attacks in Spain? How about the riots by the arabs in Paris?
You also ignore the fact that since the fall of the Berlin Wall, the U.S. has been the defacto defender of Europe. Hell, they couldn't even take on the Bosnia/Serbia issue.
Our military expenditures make up less than 15% of our annual budget, heck, it might even be less than .5% now that Barry has driven our deficit over 1.8 trillion dollars.
I know you don't consider a China interested in taking Taiwan a threat, or a nuclear armed NoKo and Iran a threat, or a resurgent Communist Russia under Vlad Putin a threat. Need I go on McRocket?
No, we don't need to have the best military on the planet, we need to prostate our selves at the feet of our enemies and hope for their mercy.
Thank God for the U.S.S. New York! And God Bless all those who protect your right to be an ass hat.
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McRocket
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 02:03 am |
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AlterEgo wrote: How many times have the Euros been attacked since 9/11? Remember the attacks in Spain? How about the riots by the arabs in Paris?
You also ignore the fact that since the fall of the Berlin Wall, the U.S. has been the defacto defender of Europe. Hell, they couldn't even take on the Bosnia/Serbia issue. Defender against who?
I know you don't consider a China interested in taking Taiwan a threat, or a nuclear armed NoKo and Iran a threat, or a resurgent Communist Russia under Vlad Putin a threat. Need I go on McRocket?
Please do. And no, I do not consider 'NoKo' or Iran a threat to America's sovereignty. At all.
Thank God for the U.S.S. New York! And God Bless all those who protect your right to be an ass hat.
Yes, where would we be without her 2 X 30mm Bushmaster II self defence guns, her RAM lightweight missile launchers and two .50 cal's?
After all, what's another 1/2 a billion dollars for a ship with probably less firepower then a single M1 tank?
Have a safe night.
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George Aligator
Member
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 12:09 pm |
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McRocket wrote: AlterEgo wrote: How many times have the Euros been attacked since 9/11? Remember the attacks in Spain? How about the riots by the arabs in Paris?
You also ignore the fact that since the fall of the Berlin Wall, the U.S. has been the defacto defender of Europe. Hell, they couldn't even take on the Bosnia/Serbia issue. Defender against who?
I know you don't consider a China interested in taking Taiwan a threat, or a nuclear armed NoKo and Iran a threat, or a resurgent Communist Russia under Vlad Putin a threat. Need I go on McRocket?
Please do. And no, I do not consider 'NoKo' or Iran a threat to America's sovereignty. At all.
Thank God for the U.S.S. New York! And God Bless all those who protect your right to be an ass hat.
Yes, where would we be without her 2 X 30mm Bushmaster II self defence guns, her RAM lightweight missile launchers and two .50 cal's?
After all, what's another 1/2 a billion dollars for a ship with probably less firepower then a single M1 tank?
Have a safe night.
Well, looking on the bright side, a lot of heavy caliber weaponry isn't going to be needed if al Qaeda decides to take to the waves. Camels are poor swimmers at best.
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mostwanted
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 02:07 pm |
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| did they nail saddams skull to the jigger mast?
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commonsensical
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 04:58 pm |
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AlterEgo wrote: George Aligator wrote: That a few tons of steel picked out of the landfill where the WTC was dumped have been used to make a piece of the bow of this ship is a clever bit of propaganda that shows what dupes the American voters are.
No matter what recycled junk the ship is built from, it is an expensive and unnecessary addition to an already bloated and over-priced military which has not only failed to catch the folks who blew up the buildings, it is failing to prop up the tottering American empire.
Had the millions wasted and the millions more to be wasted in building and deploying this unnecessary bit of military hardware been invested in modern manufacturing technology, research, education or public health, we might have seen some return on the expenditure.
Instead, all that investment will do nothing to make us stronger and the ship will continue to consume our substance until it is finally broken up for scrap and sold to the Chinese, who will make it into automobiles etc. to sell back to us.
We are suckers!
Lets review. Because of the impotence, and incompetence of the Clinton administration, 3000 people died on Sep. 11, 2001, less than 8 months after George Bush took office. Since then, no American has died on American soil because of a terrorist act.
Why? Ships like this are now being employed to do what they were designed to do, protect American soil.
The purpose of our military, be it Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force or specfor is not as you say to: "prop up the tottering American empire". It is to protect this country from outside threats. This ship is no more than a piece of equipment that is used by the people who actually protect this country. And those people deserve the best equipment we can supply them with to accomplish that job.
Apparently, you'd like to see our volunteer military using second hand equipment with Korean war technology. Why don't you try to justify that to any current military parent.
And if the American culture is tottering it's because of dog piles like you who vote for ass hats like Obama, Harry Greed, Nancy Pilousy, etc. who's only purpose in life is to destroy this unique country.
We're not suckers George, you're an idiot.
Well said.
Just ignore the usual idiots who reply with their pacifist fantasies. I don't know who said it but it was once said that...."If you want peace right now you can have it...Surrender!"
Peace through strength. You don't have to actually beat the living crap out of people. Just knowing that you can and will is enough to stop them from starting something.
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