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Mazel Schlimazel
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 08:26 pm |
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Yes, a nation is certainly much more than its language.
Switzerland prides itself in the very fact that it has 4 official languages (Schwitze-Deutsch, Francois, Italian, and Romansch..)
Last edited on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 08:29 pm by Mazel Schlimazel
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andytown
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 08:28 pm |
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Ireland's initial reason for not signing was based on 3 to 4 internal and external objections
1---Ireland remains in full control of it's external affairs---especially it's neutrality
2---Ireland remains in full control of moral statutes
3---Ireland will never accede to NATO
and there were others
ALL THESE WERE ACCEPTED BY THE REST OF THE EU--IF NOT IRELAND WOULD NOT HAVE AGREED
So hump you -- you Europeans
we live in the Atlantic and are miles away from the Dutch and Germans and French
and best of all 6000 miles away from the USA
Last edited on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 08:31 pm by andytown
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George Aligator
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 08:57 pm |
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Slaol_121 wrote: George Aligator wrote:
When was the last time Slaol_121 was actually in a public -school classroom here in God's Country? Not too many crucifixes around...
Really, if Slaol_121 needs to throw his apron over his head and have a good cry, he ought to at least find something to cry about.
This issue here is not the crucifix. The issue is the European Court of Human Rights declaring a decision made by the Italian courts to be invalid - and imposing a fine.
This is "states' rights" Euro style...
Not a bad point. The US and EU represent a global tendency towards consolidation of large, nation states. The change is driven by economic efficiency and, in a related way, military effectivness. Modern technology in communication and transportation facilitate the development. The process is not inevitable and is occasionally reversable (e.g. USSR). Whether it is desirable is, I suppose a matter of taste. Conglomerations put together by force (e.g. USSR) are more fragile than purely voluntary ones (e.g. Canada). The US is a bit of both.
Libertarians, who still believe in the fantasy of the State of Nature and a Contract Theory of Government -- the idea that original governments resulted from a voluntary surrender of some individual rights in order to better preserve the rest -- ought to understand the arguments for consolidation.
The American quirk comes from the reality that "states' rights" is a code word for a race-based class system in which poor whites support the ruling oligarchy in return for marginally better treatement than non-whites. The ruling class euphemzes this contract with statements like "we are all one blood"; the poor whites rationalize it with the consolation that "at least I ain't black."
It was under this system that hundreds of thousands of poor whites died in the Civil War defending the property of the tiny minority owning ten or more slaves. Even today, the social contract lingers, providing lousy schools, inadequate medical services and limited opportunities to the suckers flying the Stars and Bars.
Modern iterations of the scam often feature gun control and unions as ancillary boogymen.
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bushmaster
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 10:00 pm |
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Slaol_121 wrote: Symbols have a tremendous power to convey meaning, and the secularizing forces reigning in the European Union seem bent on eradicating all signs of the Christian civilization which once flourished in every one of its 27 member nations.
As the Lisbon Treaty tightens the noose around the necks of the nations of what was once Christian Europe, an appalling circumstance in Italy summarizes the shape of things to come. A report at Catholic.org (“Italy’s Bishops Irate over Crucifix Ban by European Court”) demonstrates what ‘tolerance’ and ‘diversity’ actually mean in practice: A ban on expression of a nation’s Christian heritage.
Italy's bishops are saying the European Court of Human Rights is guilty of a partial and ideological outlook with its Tuesday decision that crucifixes in public school are a violation of freedom.
http://www.jbs.org/jbs-news-feed/5597-european-court-fines-italy-for-classroom-display-of-the-crucifix
This is depressing.Although i consider myself a liberal,i firmly believe people have a God-given right to their religion.I hardly support an Iranian style theocracy,but i fear the day's(like this one)when Believer's are completely silenced.
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George Aligator
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 10:23 pm |
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bushmaster wrote: Slaol_121 wrote: Symbols have a tremendous power to convey meaning, and the secularizing forces reigning in the European Union seem bent on eradicating all signs of the Christian civilization which once flourished in every one of its 27 member nations.
As the Lisbon Treaty tightens the noose around the necks of the nations of what was once Christian Europe, an appalling circumstance in Italy summarizes the shape of things to come. A report at Catholic.org (“Italy’s Bishops Irate over Crucifix Ban by European Court”) demonstrates what ‘tolerance’ and ‘diversity’ actually mean in practice: A ban on expression of a nation’s Christian heritage.
Italy's bishops are saying the European Court of Human Rights is guilty of a partial and ideological outlook with its Tuesday decision that crucifixes in public school are a violation of freedom.
http://www.jbs.org/jbs-news-feed/5597-european-court-fines-italy-for-classroom-display-of-the-crucifix
This is depressing.Although i consider myself a liberal,i firmly believe people have a God-given right to their religion.I hardly support an Iranian style theocracy,but i fear the day's(like this one)when Believer's are completely silenced.
There ain't no "completely silenced". We are talking public school classrooms. The idea of "a ban on expression of a nation's Christian heritage" is both disingenuous and wildly over-blown.
The "Christian heritage" includes burning alive people whom the hierarchy deemed out of line, not to mention persecution of the "murderers of Christ". "Ghetto" is an Italian word.
This is the "Christian heritage" that supported the Fascists and winked at the Nazis as being less bad than the Communists. Put a crucifix in your house or on your lawn. Or just go to church, but don't force kids whose parents don't share your superstitions to stare at your ghoulish totem while they are trying to learn their lessons.
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andytown
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 11:03 pm |
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George---no agree
but it's different in Ireland
well in the northern 6 counties which britian has stolen
However Catholics go to their own schools---which we built,and no f**ker is going to deprive us of 1200 years of holocaust and genocide--never ever again,but it's not just religion its the whole ethos,history,and our beautiful celtic culture
Protestants go to state schools--well good luck to them...ON LAND STOLEN FROM THE NATIVE CATHOLIC POPULATION
For centuries catholics were not allowed under pain of death ..........................>>>
TO PRACTICE THEIR FAITH--SPEAK THEIR OWN LANGUAGE--LIVE THEIR CULTURED WAYS,NOT ALLOWED TO OWN LAND,NOR HORSE,OR ANYTHING BEYOND 5 POUND STG,OR LIVE BY OUR OWN LAWS THE BREHON LAWS
George get to know certain circumstances before preaching what people should or should not live or do
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:00 am |
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TR1985 wrote: You are working the analogy backwards, (anyway, I thought belgium split up after the last election anyway)
Nope, didn't split up, just expanded the autonomy. Still one country.
Anyway, South America has the dominant spanish language and several independent nations in spite of their common language. You are working backwards.
Europe has dozens of different languages. The nations are moving closer together, integrating slowly but surely. We're very much following in Switzerland's footsteps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland
The 26 cantons of Switzerland are the member states of the federal state of Switzerland. Each canton was a fully sovereign state with its own borders, army and currency from the Treaty of Westphalia (1648) until the establishment of the Swiss federal state in 1848. Each canton has its own constitution, legislature, government and courts.The Swiss Federal Constitution declares the cantons to be sovereign to the extent their sovereignty is not limited by federal law. The cantons also retain all powers and competencies not delegated to the Confederation by the Constitution. Most significantly, the cantons are responsible for healthcare, welfare, law enforcement and public education; they also retain the power of taxation.
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:08 am |
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andytown wrote: George---no agree
but it's different in Ireland
well in the northern 6 counties which britian has stolen
However Catholics go to their own schools---which we built,and no f**ker is going to deprive us of 1200 years of holocaust and genocide--never ever again,but it's not just religion its the whole ethos,history,and our beautiful celtic culture
Protestants go to state schools--well good luck to them...ON LAND STOLEN FROM THE NATIVE CATHOLIC POPULATION
For centuries catholics were not allowed under pain of death ..........................>>>
TO PRACTICE THEIR FAITH--SPEAK THEIR OWN LANGUAGE--LIVE THEIR CULTURED WAYS,NOT ALLOWED TO OWN LAND,NOR HORSE,OR ANYTHING BEYOND 5 POUND STG,OR LIVE BY OUR OWN LAWS THE BREHON LAWS
George get to know certain circumstances before preaching what people should or should not live or do
Andy, Ireland has signed the convention, which states:
Article 2, Protocol 1:
No person shall be denied the right to education. In the exercise of any functions which it assumes in relation to education and to teaching, the State shall respect the right of parents to ensure such education and teaching in conformity with their own religions and philosophical convictions.
No one forced you to sign. If you wish to become a theocracy, you are free to withdraw from the treaty and to found the Irish inquisition.
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:13 am |
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andytown wrote: Ireland's initial reason for not signing was based on 3 to 4 internal and external objections
1---Ireland remains in full control of it's external affairs---especially it's neutrality
2---Ireland remains in full control of moral statutes
3---Ireland will never accede to NATO
and there were others
ALL THESE WERE ACCEPTED BY THE REST OF THE EU--IF NOT IRELAND WOULD NOT HAVE AGREED
So hump you -- you Europeans
we live in the Atlantic and are miles away from the Dutch and Germans and French
and best of all 6000 miles away from the USA
Do keep in mind that the European Union (the Lisbon Treaty) and the Council of Europe (the Convention) are two separate organizations.
The EU has nothing to do with the court ruling.
Last edited on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:15 am by European Snob
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€urope2004
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:45 am |
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Please let me go back on topic:
First of all, this was not the idea of a silly Finnish woman. Her children are Italian, and more important, her husband is italian, and a founding member of the Italian Atheist Association (UAAR). This has been going on for a very long time, and lot of attempts of removing those symbols from classrooms and courts (yes, they are in courtrooms too) have been made unsuccessfully. The supreme court of Italy (the Costitutional Court) has not ruled on this issue: it has avoided it declaring its incompetence (nobody in Itay wants to mess with the Church unless he is forced too), and has passed the matter to another High Court, (the Council of State) largely controlled by the Executive. This Council has defined the Crucifix not as a religious symbol, but the symbol of western culture and values, and therefore a symbol of Laicitè. Defining a crucifix as a symbol of secoularism and tolerance is the most stupid thing even written in a court verdict ever, in my opinion. But that's what you can expect from the Italian courts. Yes, because this is the funny thing: Italy has this weird idea of calling itself a secular country, with no religion of State, but yet wants to grant to the Catholic Churc all sorts of priviledges, using all kinds of juridic tricks. How lame is that?
Anyway, appealing to the European Court of Human Rights was our last hope of putting an end to this nonsense. Strasbourg has reminded us what we are, or at least, what we are supposed to be. We are a western country, but sometimes we refuse to cope with the idea. There is a good half of the population who simply is too ignorant and selfish to be defined western or civilized, and you can see it from whom they elect (Berlusconi), from the fact they don't care about abiding to laws or paying taxes, from the way they don't respect the most basic rules of education and politeness, and just care about themselves and their families.
We need help to improve ourselves, and this European verdict do help us.
Last edited on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:48 am by €urope2004
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zonnebloem
Member
| Joined: | Sun May 29th, 2005 |
| Location: | InMod, Netherlands |
| Posts: | 13411 |
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:46 am |
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TR1985 schreef:
Slaol_121 wrote: European Snob wrote:
Slaol_121 wrote: They were sovereign nations when they entered into the union, just like the European Nations are sovereign now. The only difference, obviously, is the amount of time these nations remained sovereign. This is the whole point of ES's statement about learning from the history of the US.
The Treaty of Lisbon has a clause which makes secession from the Union legal - thereby avoiding the possibility of a civil war over the "right to secession".
We seem to agree alarmingly often. 
Do you consider this to be a good, or bad thing?
My view of American History (the view that the States were sovereign nations) is, for some reason, considered to be quite radical today... even if it is accurate. Your view would have been the dismantling of this country and the continued enslavement of blacks. Of course its radical.
No. he just said that originally the states were nations for a brief time. Nothing more and nothing less.
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zonnebloem
Member
| Joined: | Sun May 29th, 2005 |
| Location: | InMod, Netherlands |
| Posts: | 13411 |
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:51 am |
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TR1985 schreef:
TR1985 wrote: Each state is unique, however, they have fare more in common than do the nations of Europe.
I might add that language is one of most important markers of nation.
South America being the major exception to this.
Nations are the most important makers of language, not that languages where the 'markers'. With borders, different languages at each side on the border were created.
Without separate nations, German, Dutch and English wouldn't even exist as languages. There would only be a Germanic dialect continuum.
Last edited on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:54 am by zonnebloem
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:53 am |
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€urope2004 wrote: Please let me go back on topic:
First of all, this was not the idea of a silly Finnish woman. Her children are Italian, and more important, her husband is italian, and a founding member of the Italian Atheist Association (UAAR). This has been going on for a very long time, and lot of attempts of removing those symbols from classrooms and courts (yes, they are in courtrooms too) have been made unsuccessfully. The supreme court of Italy (the Costitutional Court) has not ruled on this issue: it has avoided it declaring its incompetence (nobody in Itay wants to mess with the Church unless he is forced too), and has passed the matter to another High Court, (the Council of State) largely controlled by the Executive. This Council has defined the Crucifix not as a religious symbol, but the symbol of western culture and values, and therefore a symbol of Laicitè. Defining a crucifix as a symbol of secoularism and tolerance is the most stupid thing even written in a court verdict ever, in my opinion. But that's what you can expect from the Italian courts. Yes, because this is the funny thing: Italy has this weird idea of calling itself a secular country, with no religion of State, but yet wants to grant to the Catholic Churc all sorts of priviledges, using all kinds of juridic tricks. How lame is that?
Anyway, appealing to the European Court of Human Rights was our last hope of putting an end to this nonsense. Strasbourg has reminded us what we are, or at least, what we are supposed to be. We are a western country, but sometimes we refuse to cope with the idea. There is a good half of the population who simply is too ignorant and selfish to be defined western or civilized, and you can see it from whom they elect (Berlusconi), from the fact they don't care about abiding to laws or paying taxes, from the way they don't respect the most basic rules of education and politeness, and just care about themselves and their families.
We need help to improve ourselves, and this European verdict do help us.
Oh, that's good to know.
In this thread, there seems to be a fairly clear divide between Americans and Europeans concerning the European integration - Europeans for, Americans against.
Whose continent is it again? 
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:55 am |
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zonnebloem wrote: TR1985 schreef:
I might add that language is one of most important markers of nation.
South America being the major exception to this.
Nations are the most important makers of language, not the other way around. Without nations German, Dutch and English wouldn't even exist as languages. There would only be a Germanic dialect continuum.
The Scandinavian languages are quite an interesting bunch as well. If it weren't for the national borders, there'd be just one language and three dialects...
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zonnebloem
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:57 am |
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| The fact that crucifixes are also in the Italian courtroom does mean that atheists can't get a fair and impartial trial in Italy. This is not a mere symbol this is very serious.
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 09:01 am |
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zonnebloem wrote: The fact that crucifixes are also in the Italian courtroom does mean that atheists can't get a fair and impartial trial in Italy. This is not a mere symbol this is very serious.
I have to agree. Someone please sue them.
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zonnebloem
Member
| Joined: | Sun May 29th, 2005 |
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| Posts: | 13411 |
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 09:09 am |
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European Snob schreef:
€urope2004 wrote: Please let me go back on topic:
First of all, this was not the idea of a silly Finnish woman. Her children are Italian, and more important, her husband is italian, and a founding member of the Italian Atheist Association (UAAR). This has been going on for a very long time, and lot of attempts of removing those symbols from classrooms and courts (yes, they are in courtrooms too) have been made unsuccessfully. The supreme court of Italy (the Costitutional Court) has not ruled on this issue: it has avoided it declaring its incompetence (nobody in Itay wants to mess with the Church unless he is forced too), and has passed the matter to another High Court, (the Council of State) largely controlled by the Executive. This Council has defined the Crucifix not as a religious symbol, but the symbol of western culture and values, and therefore a symbol of Laicitè. Defining a crucifix as a symbol of secoularism and tolerance is the most stupid thing even written in a court verdict ever, in my opinion. But that's what you can expect from the Italian courts. Yes, because this is the funny thing: Italy has this weird idea of calling itself a secular country, with no religion of State, but yet wants to grant to the Catholic Churc all sorts of priviledges, using all kinds of juridic tricks. How lame is that?
Anyway, appealing to the European Court of Human Rights was our last hope of putting an end to this nonsense. Strasbourg has reminded us what we are, or at least, what we are supposed to be. We are a western country, but sometimes we refuse to cope with the idea. There is a good half of the population who simply is too ignorant and selfish to be defined western or civilized, and you can see it from whom they elect (Berlusconi), from the fact they don't care about abiding to laws or paying taxes, from the way they don't respect the most basic rules of education and politeness, and just care about themselves and their families.
We need help to improve ourselves, and this European verdict do help us.
Oh, that's good to know.
In this thread, there seems to be a fairly clear divide between Americans and Europeans concerning the European integration - Europeans for, Americans against.
Whose continent is it again?
You forget one drunken Irishman
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 09:18 am |
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zonnebloem wrote: European Snob schreef:
Oh, that's good to know.
In this thread, there seems to be a fairly clear divide between Americans and Europeans concerning the European integration - Europeans for, Americans against.
Whose continent is it again?
You forget one drunken Irishman
"a fairly clear divide"
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Axis Mundi
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 12:59 pm |
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bushmaster wrote: This is depressing.Although i consider myself a liberal,i firmly believe people have a God-given right to their religion.I hardly support an Iranian style theocracy,but i fear the day's(like this one)when Believer's are completely silenced.
In US schools, the students are well within their rights to wear their religious symbology, carry bibles, and pray silently during class or together between classes.
NO ONE has a right to impose thier religion on others, however, which is exactly what g'ment endorsed religion does, such as crosses on walls, forced prayers and bible study in public schools.
The Establishment Clause of our Constitution strove to perfectly preserve the religious rights and equality of US citizens by ensuring religion remained in the private sector, unable to force itself upon the masses through our secular laws.
This lofty and noble ideal has been laid aside in the interest of those seeking a theodemocracy at best, theocracy at worst, to the detriment of everyone, including themselves.
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George Aligator
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 01:37 pm |
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andytown wrote: George---no agree
but it's different in Ireland
well in the northern 6 counties which britian has stolen
However Catholics go to their own schools---which we built,and no f**ker is going to deprive us of 1200 years of holocaust and genocide--never ever again,but it's not just religion its the whole ethos,history,and our beautiful celtic culture
Protestants go to state schools--well good luck to them...ON LAND STOLEN FROM THE NATIVE CATHOLIC POPULATION
For centuries catholics were not allowed under pain of death ..........................>>>
TO PRACTICE THEIR FAITH--SPEAK THEIR OWN LANGUAGE--LIVE THEIR CULTURED WAYS,NOT ALLOWED TO OWN LAND,NOR HORSE,OR ANYTHING BEYOND 5 POUND STG,OR LIVE BY OUR OWN LAWS THE BREHON LAWS
George get to know certain circumstances before preaching what people should or should not live or do
A charming turn by our newest stage Irishman, still playing the patriot game long after the other team and the fans have left the stadium.
No one is talking about crucifixes displayed in Catholic schools. Better have another pull on the Guinness and read that last bit again.
I haven't any interest in defending the English behavior in Ireland, so feel free to wail away. You might want to take a peek at the sordid history of the Catholic Church in the Ould Sod because besides beating and raping the children in their care, the RC clergy has a centuries-long record of collaboration with the British in keeping the native population down and obedient. "You control their bodies and we'll control their minds" was the deal. It's not uniquely Irish, the RC Church did the same thing with the French in Canada.
So before we get all weepy over Mother Machree, we ought to remember the repressive role of the Catholic Church in keeping the Irish in ignorance and in guilt under British rule.
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