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Slaol_121
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 12:17 pm |
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Symbols have a tremendous power to convey meaning, and the secularizing forces reigning in the European Union seem bent on eradicating all signs of the Christian civilization which once flourished in every one of its 27 member nations.
As the Lisbon Treaty tightens the noose around the necks of the nations of what was once Christian Europe, an appalling circumstance in Italy summarizes the shape of things to come. A report at Catholic.org (“Italy’s Bishops Irate over Crucifix Ban by European Court”) demonstrates what ‘tolerance’ and ‘diversity’ actually mean in practice: A ban on expression of a nation’s Christian heritage.
Italy's bishops are saying the European Court of Human Rights is guilty of a partial and ideological outlook with its Tuesday decision that crucifixes in public school are a violation of freedom.
http://www.jbs.org/jbs-news-feed/5597-european-court-fines-italy-for-classroom-display-of-the-crucifix
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Slaol_121
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 12:28 pm |
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The court ruled in favor of an Italian citizen of Finnish origin who complained in 2002 that the state school where her two children studied violated their freedom by displaying crucifixes.
The school's administration refused to remove them, contending that the crucifix is part of Italian cultural patrimony; Italian courts subsequently backed this claim.
Now, the Strasbourg-based European court has asked the Italian government to compensate the woman with €5,000 ($7,300).
The European Court has disregarded the decision of the Italian courts by imposing this ban/fine.
This is a small preview of what Europe has in store now that they have signed the Lisbon treaty.Last edited on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 12:28 pm by Slaol_121
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George Aligator
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 12:29 pm |
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When was the last time Slaol_121 was actually in a public -school classroom here in God's Country? Not too many crucifixes around...
Really, if Slaol_121 needs to throw his apron over his head and have a good cry, he ought to at least find something to cry about.
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Slaol_121
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 12:35 pm |
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George Aligator wrote:
When was the last time Slaol_121 was actually in a public -school classroom here in God's Country? Not too many crucifixes around...
Really, if Slaol_121 needs to throw his apron over his head and have a good cry, he ought to at least find something to cry about.
This issue here is not the crucifix. The issue is the European Court of Human Rights declaring a decision made by the Italian courts to be invalid - and imposing a fine.
This is "states' rights" Euro style...Last edited on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 12:36 pm by Slaol_121
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andytown
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 12:41 pm |
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Let me put it this
Try this fecking crap in 96% Catholic Ireland---and the European judges may go into hiding---indeed the fecking european MPS will need to join them
Racial or religious discrimation is one thing but 1400 years of tradition being trampled on---no way--England tried to walk on our ways,our laws, our religion,---all they got was bodies
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TR1985
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:02 pm |
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I agree. If the Italian people wanted the crucifix, that is their perogative. The EU never stated in the treaty negotiation process that this would occur.
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:27 pm |
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TR1985 wrote: I agree. If the Italian people wanted the crucifix, that is their perogative. The EU never stated in the treaty negotiation process that this would occur.
This decision has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty.
European Court of Human Rights
"The compulsory display of a symbol of a given confession in premises used by the public authorities, and especially in classrooms, thus restricted the right of parents to educate their children in conformity with their convictions, and the right of children to believe or not to believe. The Court concluded, unanimously, that there had been a violation of Article 2 of Protocol No. 1 taken jointly with Article 9 of the Convention."
Italy violated a treaty it voluntarily signed, end of story.
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Voted4Reagan
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:27 pm |
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andytown wrote: Let me put it this
Try this fecking crap in 96% Catholic Ireland---and the European judges may go into hiding---indeed the fecking european MPS will need to join them
Racial or religious discrimation is one thing but 1400 years of tradition being trampled on---no way--England tried to walk on our ways,our laws, our religion,---all they got was bodies
if they just did it in the seat of Catholic power Andy.... What makes you think they wont do it in Ireland? It's coming.... Trust me Andy..It's coming and Ireland is next in their sights...
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TR1985
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:27 pm |
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European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote: I agree. If the Italian people wanted the crucifix, that is their perogative. The EU never stated in the treaty negotiation process that this would occur.
This decision has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty.
European Court of Human Rights
"The compulsory display of a symbol of a given confession in premises used by the public authorities, and especially in classrooms, thus restricted the right of parents to educate their children in conformity with their convictions, and the right of children to believe or not to believe. The Court concluded, unanimously, that there had been a violation of Article 2 of Protocol No. 1 taken jointly with Article 9 of the Convention."
Italy violated a treaty it voluntarily signed, end of story.
What does the text of Article 2 Protocol No 1 state?
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TR1985
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:28 pm |
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If I were the Italian PM, I'd reject it.
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:29 pm |
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andytown wrote: Let me put it this
Try this fecking crap in 96% Catholic Ireland---and the European judges may go into hiding---indeed the fecking european MPS will need to join them
Racial or religious discrimation is one thing but 1400 years of tradition being trampled on---no way--England tried to walk on our ways,our laws, our religion,---all they got was bodies
So you're saying that Irish public schools have crucifixes on the classroom walls too?
Now where did I put the ECHR's email address...
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TR1985
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:33 pm |
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European Snob wrote: andytown wrote: Let me put it this
Try this fecking crap in 96% Catholic Ireland---and the European judges may go into hiding---indeed the fecking european MPS will need to join them
Racial or religious discrimation is one thing but 1400 years of tradition being trampled on---no way--England tried to walk on our ways,our laws, our religion,---all they got was bodies
So you're saying that Irish public schools have crucifixes on the classroom walls too?
Now where did I put the ECHR's email address...
What business is it of yours what Irish schools do or do not have? You don't vote in their elections. If the Irish want them, its their prerogative, just as it is for Italy. France decided for itself it didn't want religious imagery and that was their decision. This is an example of a court making decisions where the people should be sovereign.
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:33 pm |
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TR1985 wrote: What does the text of Article 2 Protocol No 1 state?
http://www.hri.org/docs/ECHR50.html
Happy hunting. 
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:35 pm |
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TR1985 wrote: What business is it of yours what Irish schools do or do not have? You don't vote in their elections. If the Irish want them, its their prerogative, just as it is for Italy. France decided for itself it didn't want religious imagery and that was their decision. This is an example of a court making decisions where the people should be sovereign.
The representatives elected by the sovereign Irish people signed the treaty. They have to either follow it or quit.
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TR1985
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:36 pm |
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European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote: What does the text of Article 2 Protocol No 1 state?
http://www.hri.org/docs/ECHR50.html
Happy hunting.
- Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
- Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
I'm assuming this is where they get the legal reasoning for their decision.
It's an infringement on national sovereignty and tradition by an unelected official. The Italians should reject it.
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European Snob
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:37 pm |
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TR1985 wrote: If I were the Italian PM, I'd reject it.
If you were Silvio, you'd be sitting next to a pool with some 18yo lingerie models on your lap and sipping very expensive wine as we speak... 
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TR1985
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:38 pm |
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European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote: What business is it of yours what Irish schools do or do not have? You don't vote in their elections. If the Irish want them, its their prerogative, just as it is for Italy. France decided for itself it didn't want religious imagery and that was their decision. This is an example of a court making decisions where the people should be sovereign.
The representatives elected by the sovereign Irish people signed the treaty. They have to either follow it or quit.
Did anyone signing the treaty expect that crucifixes would be banned from their schools? Did Italians back in the 1960's have that expectation? So all of a sudden forty years later an unelected court decides to implement national changes that the people themselves have rejected?
Can't say that I agree to that.
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TR1985
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:38 pm |
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European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote: If I were the Italian PM, I'd reject it.
If you were Silvio, you'd be sitting next to a pool with some 18yo lingerie models on your lap and sipping very expensive wine as we speak...
Yes. I do indeed wish I were the PM of Italy.
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Axis Mundi
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:39 pm |
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Slaol_121 wrote: Symbols have a tremendous power to convey meaning, and the secularizing forces reigning in the European Union seem bent on eradicating all signs of the Christian civilization which once flourished in every one of its 27 member nations.
As the Lisbon Treaty tightens the noose around the necks of the nations of what was once Christian Europe, an appalling circumstance in Italy summarizes the shape of things to come. A report at Catholic.org (“Italy’s Bishops Irate over Crucifix Ban by European Court”) demonstrates what ‘tolerance’ and ‘diversity’ actually mean in practice: A ban on expression of a nation’s Christian heritage.
Italy's bishops are saying the European Court of Human Rights is guilty of a partial and ideological outlook with its Tuesday decision that crucifixes in public school are a violation of freedom.
http://www.jbs.org/jbs-news-feed/5597-european-court-fines-italy-for-classroom-display-of-the-crucifix
Public schools are paid for by everyone. Not everyone in those cutnries are Christians. There is no logical reason or reasoning why Christianity should enjoy special treatment in a ppublic school.
Religion belongs in the private sector, not government.
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Voted4Reagan
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:39 pm |
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First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.
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