| Author | Post |
|---|
European Snob
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:39 pm |
|
TR1985 wrote:
- Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
- Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
I'm assuming this is where they get the legal reasoning for their decision.
It's an infringement on national sovereignty and tradition by an unelected official. The Italians should reject it.
The Italians are welcome to quit the treaty if they want.
Here are the unelected officials, btw:
Judgment was given by a Chamber of seven judges, composed as follows:
Françoise Tulkens (Belgium),
Ireneu Cabral Barreto (Portugal),
Vladimiro Zagrebelsky (Italy),
Danutė Jočienė (Lithuania),
Dragoljub Popović (Serbia),
András Sajó (Hungary),
Işıl Karakaş (Turkey)
Last edited on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:40 pm by European Snob
|
Axis Mundi
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:39 pm |
|
Slaol_121 wrote: Symbols have a tremendous power to convey meaning, and the secularizing forces reigning in the European Union seem bent on eradicating all signs of the Christian civilization which once flourished in every one of its 27 member nations.
As the Lisbon Treaty tightens the noose around the necks of the nations of what was once Christian Europe, an appalling circumstance in Italy summarizes the shape of things to come. A report at Catholic.org (“Italy’s Bishops Irate over Crucifix Ban by European Court”) demonstrates what ‘tolerance’ and ‘diversity’ actually mean in practice: A ban on expression of a nation’s Christian heritage.
Italy's bishops are saying the European Court of Human Rights is guilty of a partial and ideological outlook with its Tuesday decision that crucifixes in public school are a violation of freedom.
http://www.jbs.org/jbs-news-feed/5597-european-court-fines-italy-for-classroom-display-of-the-crucifix
Public schools are paid for by everyone. Not everyone in those cutnries are Christians. There is no logical reason or reasoning why Christianity should enjoy special treatment in a ppublic school.
Religion belongs in the private sector, not government.
|
TR1985
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:40 pm |
|
European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote:
- Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
- Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
I'm assuming this is where they get the legal reasoning for their decision.
It's an infringement on national sovereignty and tradition by an unelected official. The Italians should reject it.
The Italians are welcome to quit the treaty if they want.
That they should.
|
TR1985
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:41 pm |
|
Axis Mundi wrote: Slaol_121 wrote: Symbols have a tremendous power to convey meaning, and the secularizing forces reigning in the European Union seem bent on eradicating all signs of the Christian civilization which once flourished in every one of its 27 member nations.
As the Lisbon Treaty tightens the noose around the necks of the nations of what was once Christian Europe, an appalling circumstance in Italy summarizes the shape of things to come. A report at Catholic.org (“Italy’s Bishops Irate over Crucifix Ban by European Court”) demonstrates what ‘tolerance’ and ‘diversity’ actually mean in practice: A ban on expression of a nation’s Christian heritage.
Italy's bishops are saying the European Court of Human Rights is guilty of a partial and ideological outlook with its Tuesday decision that crucifixes in public school are a violation of freedom.
http://www.jbs.org/jbs-news-feed/5597-european-court-fines-italy-for-classroom-display-of-the-crucifix
Public schools are paid for by everyone. Not everyone in those cutnries are Christians. There is no logical reason or reasoning why Christianity should enjoy special treatment in a ppublic school.
Religion belongs in the private sector, not government.
That's a provision of the American government. Not the Italian. Who are you or a non-elected government to infringe on the wishes of the Italian people?
|
TR1985
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:42 pm |
|
European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote:
- Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
- Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
I'm assuming this is where they get the legal reasoning for their decision.
It's an infringement on national sovereignty and tradition by an unelected official. The Italians should reject it.
The Italians are welcome to quit the treaty if they want.
Here are the unelected officials, btw:
Judgment was given by a Chamber of seven judges, composed as follows:
Françoise Tulkens (Belgium),
Ireneu Cabral Barreto (Portugal),
Vladimiro Zagrebelsky (Italy),
Danutė Jočienė (Lithuania),
Dragoljub Popović (Serbia),
András Sajó (Hungary),
Işıl Karakaş (Turkey)
Too much power to be held by unaccountable officials.
|
European Snob
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:42 pm |
|
Axis Mundi wrote: Public schools are paid for by everyone. Not everyone in those cutnries are Christians. There is no logical reason or reasoning why Christianity should enjoy special treatment in a ppublic school.
Religion belongs in the private sector, not government.
I fully agree - and so does the court.
|
TR1985
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:46 pm |
|
European Snob wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: Public schools are paid for by everyone. Not everyone in those cutnries are Christians. There is no logical reason or reasoning why Christianity should enjoy special treatment in a ppublic school.
Religion belongs in the private sector, not government.
I fully agree - and so does the court.
Who voted for the Justices? Did the Italians?
|
European Snob
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:49 pm |
|
TR1985 wrote: European Snob wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: Public schools are paid for by everyone. Not everyone in those cutnries are Christians. There is no logical reason or reasoning why Christianity should enjoy special treatment in a ppublic school.
Religion belongs in the private sector, not government.
I fully agree - and so does the court.
Who voted for the Justices? Did the Italians?
Did you elect your judges?
Anyone interested in how the ECHR works, have a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights
Last edited on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:53 pm by European Snob
|
TR1985
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:53 pm |
|
European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote: European Snob wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: Public schools are paid for by everyone. Not everyone in those cutnries are Christians. There is no logical reason or reasoning why Christianity should enjoy special treatment in a ppublic school.
Religion belongs in the private sector, not government.
I fully agree - and so does the court.
Who voted for the Justices? Did the Italians?
Did you elect your judges?
No . . . and that has a history of its own. Bush V Gore comes to mind. Frankly, I don't trust judicial power.
|
Slaol_121
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:57 pm |
|
European Snob wrote:
This decision has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty.
This current decision has nothing directly to do with the Lisbon treaty, I agree.
My whole point is that more of these decisions are going to happen now that the Lisbon Treaty has been signed. The treaty gives more power to the central European courts. You are going to see a lot more national decisions being struck down by the central courts.
|
European Snob
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:58 pm |
|
TR1985 wrote: European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote: Who voted for the Justices? Did the Italians?
Did you elect your judges?
No . . . and that has a history of its own. Bush V Gore comes to mind. Frankly, I don't trust judicial power.
OK, so you don't have much faith in judges in general. Good to know.
Anyway, the ECHR judges are elected by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, whose members are all national MPs. So in other words the congressmen and women elect them.
|
andytown
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:59 pm |
|
Listen Snob---dont act the bollix with me--right---no school classrooms dont have crucifixes hanging around on the classroom walls,but if SOME TEACHER DID HANG ONE,DO THINK you or some Finnish basterrd could walk in and force us to take it down through the courts---Well wee Snob ---make out you will
Fecked if we Irish would be dictated to over something like this by any hoor in Europe---so dont come and try it.
|
European Snob
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 02:00 pm |
|
Slaol_121 wrote: European Snob wrote:
This decision has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty.
This current decision has nothing directly to do with the Lisbon treaty, I agree.
My whole point is that more of these decisions are going to happen now that the Lisbon Treaty has been signed. The treaty gives more power to the central European courts. You are going to see a lot more national decisions being struck down by the central courts.
Which, when one looks at the previous rulings, is a very good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights#Some_notable_cases
|
Axis Mundi
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 02:03 pm |
|
TR1985 wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: Slaol_121 wrote: Symbols have a tremendous power to convey meaning, and the secularizing forces reigning in the European Union seem bent on eradicating all signs of the Christian civilization which once flourished in every one of its 27 member nations.
As the Lisbon Treaty tightens the noose around the necks of the nations of what was once Christian Europe, an appalling circumstance in Italy summarizes the shape of things to come. A report at Catholic.org (“Italy’s Bishops Irate over Crucifix Ban by European Court”) demonstrates what ‘tolerance’ and ‘diversity’ actually mean in practice: A ban on expression of a nation’s Christian heritage.
Italy's bishops are saying the European Court of Human Rights is guilty of a partial and ideological outlook with its Tuesday decision that crucifixes in public school are a violation of freedom.
http://www.jbs.org/jbs-news-feed/5597-european-court-fines-italy-for-classroom-display-of-the-crucifix
Public schools are paid for by everyone. Not everyone in those cutnries are Christians. There is no logical reason or reasoning why Christianity should enjoy special treatment in a ppublic school.
Religion belongs in the private sector, not government.
That's a provision of the American government. Not the Italian. Who are you or a non-elected government to infringe on the wishes of the Italian people?
From the Constitution of Italy...
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/it00000_.html
 , without regard to their sex, race, language, religion, political opinions, and personal or social conditions.
(2) It is the duty of the republic to remove all economic and social obstacles that, by limiting the freedom and equality of citizens, prevent full individual development and the participation of all workers in the political, economic, and social organization of the country.
Article 7 [Relation between State and Church]
(1) State and catholic church are, each within their own reign, independent and sovereign.
(2) Their relationship is regulated by the lateran pacts. Amendments to these pacts which are accepted by both parties do not require the procedure of constitutional amendments.
Article 8 [Religion]
(1) Religious denominations are equally free before the law.
(2) Denominations other than catholicism have the right to organize themselves according to their own by-laws, provided they do not conflict with the italian legal system.
(3) Their relationship with the state is regulated by law, based on agreements with their representatives.
And especially...
Article 20 [Religious Associations]
For associations or institutions, their religious character or religious or confessional aims do not justify special limitations or fiscal burdens regarding their establishment, legal capacity, or activities.
While their Establishment Clause isn't as succinct as ours, it is still there.
|
European Snob
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 02:04 pm |
|
andytown wrote: Listen Snob---dont act the bollix with me--right---no school classrooms dont have crucifixes hanging around on the classroom walls,but if SOME TEACHER DID HANG ONE,DO THINK you or some Finnish basterrd could walk in and force us to take it down through the courts---Well wee Snob ---make out you will
Fecked if we Irish would be dictated to over something like this by any hoor in Europe---so dont come and try it.
Ah, always so diplomatic. ![[grin]](/forums/themes/default/grinning-smiley-007.gif)
I'd advice you to contact your representatives in the Dáil and the Seanad and demand that they withdraw Ireland from the convention.
|
TR1985
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 02:04 pm |
|
European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote: European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote: Who voted for the Justices? Did the Italians?
Did you elect your judges?
No . . . and that has a history of its own. Bush V Gore comes to mind. Frankly, I don't trust judicial power.
OK, so you don't have much faith in judges in general. Good to know.
Anyway, the ECHR judges are elected by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, whose members are all national MPs. So in other words the congressmen and women elect them.
Its ridiculous. This has been a tradition of the Italians for centuries, they haven't opted to outlaw it, and now this court decides to issue a ruling to tell the Italians that they have it wrong.
|
European Snob
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 02:07 pm |
|
TR1985 wrote: Its ridiculous. This has been a tradition of the Italians for centuries, they haven't opted to outlaw it, and now this court decides to issue a ruling to tell the Italians that they have it wrong.
Again, follow the treaty you've signed or withdraw from it.
|
S.
Moderator
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 02:08 pm |
|
TR1985 wrote: European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote: What does the text of Article 2 Protocol No 1 state?
http://www.hri.org/docs/ECHR50.html
Happy hunting. 
- Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
- Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
I'm assuming this is where they get the legal reasoning for their decision.
Article two of Protocol 1 is here:
No person shall be denied the right to education. In the exercise of any functions which it assumes in relation to education and to teaching, the State shall respect the right of parents to ensure such education and teaching in conformity with their own religions and philosophical convictions.
|
TR1985
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 02:08 pm |
|
Axis Mundi wrote: TR1985 wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: Slaol_121 wrote: Symbols have a tremendous power to convey meaning, and the secularizing forces reigning in the European Union seem bent on eradicating all signs of the Christian civilization which once flourished in every one of its 27 member nations.
As the Lisbon Treaty tightens the noose around the necks of the nations of what was once Christian Europe, an appalling circumstance in Italy summarizes the shape of things to come. A report at Catholic.org (“Italy’s Bishops Irate over Crucifix Ban by European Court”) demonstrates what ‘tolerance’ and ‘diversity’ actually mean in practice: A ban on expression of a nation’s Christian heritage.
Italy's bishops are saying the European Court of Human Rights is guilty of a partial and ideological outlook with its Tuesday decision that crucifixes in public school are a violation of freedom.
http://www.jbs.org/jbs-news-feed/5597-european-court-fines-italy-for-classroom-display-of-the-crucifix
Public schools are paid for by everyone. Not everyone in those cutnries are Christians. There is no logical reason or reasoning why Christianity should enjoy special treatment in a ppublic school.
Religion belongs in the private sector, not government.
That's a provision of the American government. Not the Italian. Who are you or a non-elected government to infringe on the wishes of the Italian people?
From the Constitution of Italy...
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/it00000_.html
, without regard to their sex, race, language, religion, political opinions, and personal or social conditions.
(2) It is the duty of the republic to remove all economic and social obstacles that, by limiting the freedom and equality of citizens, prevent full individual development and the participation of all workers in the political, economic, and social organization of the country.
Article 7 [Relation between State and Church]
(1) State and catholic church are, each within their own reign, independent and sovereign.
(2) Their relationship is regulated by the lateran pacts. Amendments to these pacts which are accepted by both parties do not require the procedure of constitutional amendments.
Article 8 [Religion]
(1) Religious denominations are equally free before the law.
(2) Denominations other than catholicism have the right to organize themselves according to their own by-laws, provided they do not conflict with the italian legal system.
(3) Their relationship with the state is regulated by law, based on agreements with their representatives.
And especially...
Article 20 [Religious Associations]
For associations or institutions, their religious character or religious or confessional aims do not justify special limitations or fiscal burdens regarding their establishment, legal capacity, or activities.
While their Establishment Clause isn't as succinct as ours, it is still there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateran_Pacts
No. It isn't. Italy provides funding for Catholic Churches.
|
TR1985
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 02:09 pm |
|
European Snob wrote: TR1985 wrote: Its ridiculous. This has been a tradition of the Italians for centuries, they haven't opted to outlaw it, and now this court decides to issue a ruling to tell the Italians that they have it wrong.
Again, follow the treaty you've signed or withdraw from it.
No. There's always the tradition of ignoring it.
|
Current time is 01:22 pm | Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ...   |
|
