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Heresy
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 02:51 am |
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[urlhttp://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/11/06/who_brought_down_the_berlin_wall?page=0,0]
Throughout the 40 years of the Cold War, popular uprisings against governments established by the Soviet Union in east-central Europe took place over and over again -- in East Berlin in 1953, in Hungary in 1956, in Czechoslovakia in 1968, and in Poland almost too many times to count -- but repeatedly failed.
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In the fall of 1989, they succeeded. No one saw revolution on the way, and certainly no one could have predicted that it would take place as peacefully as it did. (The exception, of course, was the violent revolution in Romania, but even there the casualty figures were not large.) These were complex events, and the details differed substantially from country to country. Most historians would probably agree that the outcome was the result of a mix of factors. Yet simplified views still abound -- and the 20th anniversary of the wall's fall will offer plenty of opportunity to rehearse some of them yet again. Here's a reality check on the most persistent myths:Last edited on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 02:51 am by Heresy
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Heresy
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 02:52 am |
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A good analysis of what brought the Berlin Wall down.
I am sorry to say that Ronald Reagan had almost nothing to do with it.
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robert stout
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 03:25 am |
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The Pope did it.... ![[allamerican]](/forums/themes/default/allamerican.gif)
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andytown
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 03:40 am |
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| HI STOUT LEAVE THE POPE OUT OF YOUR PRESBYTERIAN/METHODIST/BAPTIST.NON CONFORMIST MOUTH-----OR ELSE
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Oldsalt
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 03:46 am |
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Heresy wrote: A good analysis of what brought the Berlin Wall down.
I am sorry to say that Ronald Reagan had almost nothing to do with it.
Heresy. We all know YOU ARE SORRY. Good call on your part.
And Reagan had nothing to do with bringing down that wall. He wasn't there when the people who WANTED TO BE FREE started tearing it down...almost by hand.
Despite that Heresy. YES.....You are one Sorry person. Always will be too!
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andytown
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 03:54 am |
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HERSEY--More...
In the fall of 1989, they succeeded. No one saw revolution on the way, and certainly no one could have predicted that it would take place as peacefully as it did. (The exception, of course, was the violent revolution in Romania, but even there the casualty figures were not large.) These were complex events, and the details differed substantially from country to country.
Most historians would probably agree that the outcome was the result of a mix of factors. Yet simplified views still abound -- and the 20th anniversary of the wall's fall will offer plenty of opportunity to rehearse some of them yet again. Here's a reality check on the most persistent myths:
SIMPLICITY--- RUSSIA WAS BANKRUPT---REGAN WAS A LOOKER ON
BUT POPE JOHN PAUL 2ND HAD A SECRET MEETING IN THE MOUNTAINS OF POLAND
WITH Lech Wałesa Solidarity LEADER WHO HAD A WALK OVER ELECTION
WITH THEM WAS THE COMMANDER OF THE COMMUNIST MILITARY PARTY---NAME I CANT REMEMBER
GENTLE PERSUSION BY PAUL,MADE HIM ENGAGE IN TALKS WITH Gorbachev,[ Mikhail](Sergeevich)
It was Gorbachev secretary of the party who really sealed it-- got a nobel prize---then resigned because of bickering within.
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andytown
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 03:59 am |
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Oldsalt may I add you were born a pratt---confirmed a pratt--joined whatever as a pratt and now at the age when you are in the departure lounge waiting on your flight number
YOU ARE STILL A PRATT
go ifferin leat
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noetsi
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 04:58 am |
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If major totalitarian states fell because politicans said mean things about it, or spent more on defense, the Soviet Union would have fallen under JFK who spent much more relative to what was spent when he came in and fiercely attacked the Soviet Union rhetorically (such as his famous "I am a Berliner" in the shadow of the Wall).
The Soviet Union fell for three main reasons:
1) The system was inefficient and lost the respect of the public including the elites (that is the sons and daughters of communist rulers). That was central to the failure of the coup that sparked the end of the Soviet Union. The defining moment of that event was when the crack Moscow motorized was sent to quell the protests in the capital. Instead the unit (led by young communists from important families) joined in the rebellion that was led (literally) by other family members.
2) Nationalism among groups conquered by the Russian empire notably in the baltics, the Ukraine, and Belarus. This gets little press in the US where few are familiar with the history of the Russian state. By 1989 nationalistic resistance was so great that Moscow had effectively lost control of most of the country. This was what actually led to the KGB coup.
In addition, and this was a primary reason the Wall fell (as compared to the Soviet Union) the Soviet Eastern European empire was hideously costly for the Russians (the CIA estimated in the late eighties it was costing tens of billions in desperately needed hard currency). Rather than benefiting Russia economically the empire was seriously harming it, and by the late eighties this could no longer be afforded.
Which is why Gorbachev let them go. We Americans tend to assume the world revolves around us, the reasons for the fall of the wall were largely internal and would have occured regardless of what we did.
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robert stout
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 09:34 am |
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andytown wrote: HI STOUT LEAVE THE POPE OUT OF YOUR PRESBYTERIAN/METHODIST/BAPTIST.NON CONFORMIST MOUTH-----OR ELSE During my misguided youth, I was an altar boy....
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lightoftruth
Member/DJ
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 09:36 am |
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Answer;;;; Obama............
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Oldsalt
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 01:16 pm |
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andytown wrote: Oldsalt may I add you were born a pratt---confirmed a pratt--joined whatever as a pratt and now at the age when you are in the departure lounge waiting on your flight number
YOU ARE STILL A PRATT
go ifferin leat
Didn't mean to overlook, or leave you out of the post to Heresy. So, to make you feel important as if someone is paying attention to you. I now declare YOU as a Sorry person as well.
And as for your PRATT suggestions and accusations. Isn't that quaint? If I had said it to you. I would have just said....A$$. I come straight to the point. But since you used that word as you did. Why should I insult your source of BRAIN power?
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Reglisse
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 02:43 pm |
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noetsi wrote: If major totalitarian states fell because politicans said mean things about it, or spent more on defense, the Soviet Union would have fallen under JFK who spent much more relative to what was spent when he came in and fiercely attacked the Soviet Union rhetorically (such as his famous "I am a Berliner" in the shadow of the Wall).
The Soviet Union fell for three main reasons:
1) The system was inefficient and lost the respect of the public including the elites (that is the sons and daughters of communist rulers). That was central to the failure of the coup that sparked the end of the Soviet Union. The defining moment of that event was when the crack Moscow motorized was sent to quell the protests in the capital. Instead the unit (led by young communists from important families) joined in the rebellion that was led (literally) by other family members.
2) Nationalism among groups conquered by the Russian empire notably in the baltics, the Ukraine, and Belarus. This gets little press in the US where few are familiar with the history of the Russian state. By 1989 nationalistic resistance was so great that Moscow had effectively lost control of most of the country. This was what actually led to the KGB coup.
In addition, and this was a primary reason the Wall fell (as compared to the Soviet Union) the Soviet Eastern European empire was hideously costly for the Russians (the CIA estimated in the late eighties it was costing tens of billions in desperately needed hard currency). Rather than benefiting Russia economically the empire was seriously harming it, and by the late eighties this could no longer be afforded.
Which is why Gorbachev let them go. We Americans tend to assume the world revolves around us, the reasons for the fall of the wall were largely internal and would have occured regardless of what we did.
did you remember "Solidarnosc"and Lech Walesa?......
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,659752,00.html
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Heresy
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 05:42 pm |
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Oldsalt wrote:
Heresy wrote: A good analysis of what brought the Berlin Wall down.
I am sorry to say that Ronald Reagan had almost nothing to do with it.
Heresy. We all know YOU ARE SORRY. Good call on your part.
And Reagan had nothing to do with bringing down that wall. He wasn't there when the people who WANTED TO BE FREE started tearing it down...almost by hand.
Despite that Heresy. YES.....You are one Sorry person. Always will be too!
Would anyone who can communicate with homeless alcoholics care to translate this Oldsalt post for me?
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noetsi
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 06:23 pm |
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Reglisse wrote: noetsi wrote: If major totalitarian states fell because politicans said mean things about it, or spent more on defense, the Soviet Union would have fallen under JFK who spent much more relative to what was spent when he came in and fiercely attacked the Soviet Union rhetorically (such as his famous "I am a Berliner" in the shadow of the Wall).
The Soviet Union fell for three main reasons:
1) The system was inefficient and lost the respect of the public including the elites (that is the sons and daughters of communist rulers). That was central to the failure of the coup that sparked the end of the Soviet Union. The defining moment of that event was when the crack Moscow motorized was sent to quell the protests in the capital. Instead the unit (led by young communists from important families) joined in the rebellion that was led (literally) by other family members.
2) Nationalism among groups conquered by the Russian empire notably in the baltics, the Ukraine, and Belarus. This gets little press in the US where few are familiar with the history of the Russian state. By 1989 nationalistic resistance was so great that Moscow had effectively lost control of most of the country. This was what actually led to the KGB coup.
In addition, and this was a primary reason the Wall fell (as compared to the Soviet Union) the Soviet Eastern European empire was hideously costly for the Russians (the CIA estimated in the late eighties it was costing tens of billions in desperately needed hard currency). Rather than benefiting Russia economically the empire was seriously harming it, and by the late eighties this could no longer be afforded.
Which is why Gorbachev let them go. We Americans tend to assume the world revolves around us, the reasons for the fall of the wall were largely internal and would have occured regardless of what we did.
did you remember "Solidarnosc"and Lech Walesa?......
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,659752,00.html
No I wrote papers about solidarity as a Soviet Studies scholar The russians crushed solidarity as they had previous movements. They were not forced out by internal resistance, but by the cost to them monetarily of Eastern Europe at a time their economy was in crisis. Subsidized fuel costs alone cost tens of billions in hard currecy.
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TR1985
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:33 pm |
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| 1986 collapse in the price of oil.
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estonianman
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:44 pm |
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TR1985 wrote: 1986 collapse in the price of oil.
Exactly.
To bring Russia to its knees - get speculators to drive down the cost of oil.
That's all it takes.
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WA Mozart
Member
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Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 05:24 pm |
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estonianman wrote: TR1985 wrote: 1986 collapse in the price of oil.
Exactly.
To bring Russia to its knees - get speculators to drive down the cost of oil.
That's all it takes.
Speculators?
T'wasn't speculators at all. It had to do with a secret meeting between William Casey (CIA Director at the time) and the Saudi royal family in the early 1980's.. They flooded the world markets with Suadi oil, collapsed the price, and brought the Soviet Union and its eastern bloc neighbors down with it. No speculating here....
Mozart
Last edited on Sun Nov 8th, 2009 05:25 pm by WA Mozart
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TR1985
Member
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Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 05:30 pm |
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WA Mozart wrote: estonianman wrote: TR1985 wrote: 1986 collapse in the price of oil.
Exactly.
To bring Russia to its knees - get speculators to drive down the cost of oil.
That's all it takes.
Speculators?
T'wasn't speculators at all. It had to do with a secret meeting between William Casey (CIA Director at the time) and the Saudi royal family in the early 1980's.. They flooded the world markets with Suadi oil, collapsed the price, and brought the Soviet Union and its eastern bloc neighbors down with it. No speculating here....
Mozart
Tis true.
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Oldsalt
Member
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Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 09:35 pm |
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Heresy wrote: Oldsalt wrote:
Heresy wrote: A good analysis of what brought the Berlin Wall down.
I am sorry to say that Ronald Reagan had almost nothing to do with it.
Heresy. We all know YOU ARE SORRY. Good call on your part.
And Reagan had nothing to do with bringing down that wall. He wasn't there when the people who WANTED TO BE FREE started tearing it down...almost by hand.
Despite that Heresy. YES.....You are one Sorry person. Always will be too!
Would anyone who can communicate with homeless alcoholics care to translate this Oldsalt post for me?
Too bad you must come here to beg others to communicate with you Heresy. There are many places where you can be taken care of despite being homeless, and not yet ready for the 12 steps.
I am an alcoholic. But I've never felt like you...being homeless and all.
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estonianman
Member
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Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 11:01 pm |
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WA Mozart wrote:
Speculators?
T'wasn't speculators at all. It had to do with a secret meeting between William Casey (CIA Director at the time) and the Saudi royal family in the early 1980's.. They flooded the world markets with Suadi oil, collapsed the price, and brought the Soviet Union and its eastern bloc neighbors down with it. No speculating here....
Mozart
I wasn't referring to the particular oil price crash that brought the USSR down - just in general.
Interesting bit of information however.
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