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Great White
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Posted: Fri Dec 17th, 2004 07:01 pm |
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OB wrote: OUR support for Isreal goes back a lot further. Yes, the arabs hate us for supporting Isreal; however, if you had read my earlier posts about UN resolution 181 you'd have realized that this whole conflict was started when the Arabs decided to form the Arab League in order to drive the jews into the sea. As the "palestinians" are not really a nationality (they just happened to be living their at the time England broke the Ottamen empire into the current middle eastern boundries). Many of the "Palestinians" were Arabs from throught the middle east who migrated there in the late 19th century and early 20th century as Jewish immigrants from Europe began settling there and brought with them irrigation, medicine, industry and science. I am fully aware of what happened in 1947. The UN decided to give somebody else home to the Jewish people, and that somebody else did not like that idea, beacuse they just happened to be the ones living there. Regardless of how you define them, as Arabs or Palestinians, their homes were stolen. There are numerous sanctions that the America has vetoed against Isreal. I can not think of any that we did not veto. Again, can you name any that actually made it past the UN Security council without getting Vetoed by the UN.
Regarding the vetoes, are you saying that the US is abusing it's position on the Security council out of self-interest, or are you simply acknowledging the advantage that the US has in being a UN member and that it is clearly to the benefit of the US to remain a member? Here's the list of UN resolutions ,(65 resolutions) that Isreal has not complied with :
1. Resolution 106: "... 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "...'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in
Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation"
13. Resolution 259: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern
Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on
Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "....'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in
Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon'
31. Resolution 444: "...'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians" 39. Resolution 471: "... 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "... 'reiterates' that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'
41. Resolution 478: "...'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'
42. Resolution 484: "...'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and
unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and
demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in
Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
53. Resolution 587: "...'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops" 55. Resolution 605: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
56. Resolution 607: "...'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly
requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
57. Resolution 608: "...'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
59. Resolution 641: "...'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians
60. Resolution 672: "...'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
61. Resolution 673: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United
Nations
62. Resolution 681: "...'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of
Palestinians
63. Resolution 694: "...'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
64. Resolution 726: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians
65. Resolution 799: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return
Maybe the arab agressors should have thought about this back in 1947 when they attacked Isreal. Time and time since then they have been attacked by the arabs or attcked Arab troop build ups on their border ahead of planned Arab invasions. If the Palestinians want an even playing field, they need to learn to play like decent human beings. Suicide bombing day cares does not cut it. I believe the Irish in northern Ireland recieved a terrible deal from England; however, I find it impossible for me to support their position as well as long as they go about bombing civillian targets in order to further their agendas.
I agree with you reagrding Ireland, and I do not "support" the IRA any more than I "support" the PLO. I do NOT support them, or their terrorist activities at all. Not one little bit. However the fact that I do not support it, does not negate the reality that it is happening or the reality that it will not stop until the grievances are addressed. As I said, I do not support their tactics, but the grievances the Palestinian, and Irish, people have are valid. Just because I do not support terrorism, does not mean there is not a need to accept reality in order to stop it. The same holds true to the Palestinians. I actually have very little sympathy for a country that invades another country, loses and then loses it's own country in the process. I realize the rest of the world paints Isreal in a bad light in order to show the Arabs that "see, we are on your side", but no one with moral conscience can ignore history. The Palestinians did not lose their country as a result of a war. They lost their land as a direct result of American support for the Jewish takeover of that land in 1947. Coubntries such as Jordan, Syrai and Egypt lost land a resul;t of their agggression, but the Palestinians lost there land BEFORE that aggression. The aggression was a result of the land being stolen. It sounds all nice and good to want to "stop" the suppression of "palestinians"; however, a lot of Isreal's "tough" measures are to protect its citiziens. Sure, they can't get to their jobs in Isreal because Isreal doesn't let them in to work. But why is that? It's because under the guise of going to work, suicide bombers were sneaking in and killing Isreallis. Now their economy is crushed. Oh well, maybe suicide bombing wasn't such a smart thing after all. Bulldozing terrorists houses is fine too. It's a punishment for being a suicide bomber. You're family will be homless if you do this. Which again spreads the misery of Palestinians. But again, oh well.. DON'T SUICIDE BOMB!!!! Partially true, however many of these tough measures are the exact same measure the Jewish peole had to endure and complained about while Palestine was under British mandate. The Jewish people living in Palestine at the time waged a war of terror against Britain, and complained that the British measures were overly oppresive. They didn't have a probelm with terror tactics THEN, just now. They did have a probelm with the harsh security measures then, but not now. And assasinating Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders is not a "criminal" act. Terrosists by default have no protection under geneva convetnions and thus are afforded no protection. I know it doesn't sound nice though does it? But I guarentee if we could assasinate Osama Bin Laden, we would in a heart beat. Not disagreeing with you on this. People need to know both the truth and history behind the Isreal/palestinian conflict before just shouting "Isreal is criminal" I fully understand that that terror is wrong and the fault of the PalestiniansArabs. However the Isreali's have their share of of the blame foe this probelm and you ignore that. Peace is a two way street I agree that people need to fully understand the situation. You best get started reading, because you have quite an education in front of you 
Last edited on Fri Dec 17th, 2004 07:04 pm by Great White
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OB
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Posted: Fri Dec 17th, 2004 09:04 pm |
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Great White wrote: I agree that people need to fully understand the situation. You best get started reading, because you have quite an education in front of you
True, Zionists did commit terrorist acts against the british including a rather infamous bombing of an air port. Now, what you fail to see, is in 1917 the respressentive of the Arabs had signed an agreement of cooperation with the zionist. Also, an agreement was signed in England stating its support of a jewish state. As more european jews moved in and bought land, the arab poppulations felt over run and began rioting and murderring these new comers. Jewish setlers organized into small defensive units. England imposed a restriction on jewish imigration to apease the arabs in an attempt to win the peace (apease the arabs... see, that's not a new concept is it?)
There were riots and violence. England finally brought this issue to the UN as UN resolution 181. It seperated the land into two sections one jewish and one arab. When Isreal declared indepenced, the arabs attacked Isreal INCLUDING palestinian militias. The previous mentioned 5 Arab nations and Palastinian militias were defeated.
The US HAS vetoed all SANCTIONS that I know of. What you sighted were RESOLUTIONS, many of which simply recomend Isreal and its adversaries come to peace talks. Resolutions and sanctions are two different things, hence using different words.
Historical facts make things look a lot different.
The UN is anti-semetic. Thats the only way I can see that everytime Isreal gets attacked by Arab armies, it somehow gets a security counsel resolution against it or proposed against it.
Hopefully one day, people will be able to get over anti-semetism and except Isreal as a nation. And, everyone says "Isreal" is commiting war crimes, please tell me which ones so those can be disputed as well.
And as to the snithe comment about me needing to read history..
I do it all the time, hence why I have facts to back up my cases and don't rely on public opinion and "what 95% of the world" thinks to tell me how to think.
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Great White
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 17th, 2004 09:53 pm |
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OB wrote: True, Zionists did commit terrorist acts against the british including a rather infamous bombing of an air port. Now, what you fail to see, is in 1917 the respressentive of the Arabs had signed an agreement of cooperation with the zionist. Also, an agreement was signed in England stating its support of a jewish state. As more european jews moved in and bought land, the arab poppulations felt over run and began rioting and murderring these new comers. Jewish setlers organized into small defensive units. England imposed a restriction on jewish imigration to apease the arabs in an attempt to win the peace (apease the arabs... see, that's not a new concept is it?) Nothing I did not know here
There were riots and violence. England finally brought this issue to the UN as UN resolution 181. It seperated the land into two sections one jewish and one arab. When Isreal declared indepenced, the arabs attacked Isreal INCLUDING palestinian militias. The previous mentioned 5 Arab nations and Palastinian militias were defeated.
All true, but missing the fact the the declared state included BOTH the Jewish and Arab areas offered in resolution 181, not just the Jewish portion The US HAS vetoed all SANCTIONS that I know of. What you sighted were RESOLUTIONS, many of which simply recomend Isreal and its adversaries come to peace talks. Resolutions and sanctions are two different things, hence using different words. I thought we were discussing Resolutions, not sanctions Historical facts make things look a lot different. Regardless of who was right or wrong in 1947, we need a solution TODAY. Placing the blame entirely on the oppressed will not get us anywhere Hopefully one day, people will be able to get over anti-semetism and except Isreal as a nation. And, everyone says "Isreal" is commiting war crimes, please tell me which ones so those can be disputed as well. Are you calling me an Anti-Semite? IF so, that's not right, to say the least. First my posistion is that BOTH sides carry the blame, not just Isreal. Second I say Isreal holds some blame, not Jews. I have a political position, based on politics, not religion.
And as to the snithe comment about me needing to read history..
Um, you say I need to learn history and that's OK, but I say the same of you and that's snide?
I do it all the time, hence why I have facts to back up my cases and don't rely on public opinion and "what 95% of the world" thinks to tell me how to think.
Polictical correctness does not influence me either, but I would work towards peace, you appear to seek is only compliance
You appear to be getting upset. If so please don't. If not, then let's keep our debate friendly
![[allamerican]](/forums/themes/default/allamerican.gif)
Last edited on Fri Dec 17th, 2004 09:55 pm by Great White
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NewEnglandPatriots
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Posted: Mon Feb 21st, 2005 02:15 am |
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Exactly. They know more about us then we know about them. Americans can care less about what Canadians think because we don't even pay attention to half the things they talk about.
I thought Canadians were cool at first, but every Canadian I talk to had insult Americans at one point in their life time. I come to think, their just a bunch of jelous people looking up to America.
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VT-R
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Posted: Mon Feb 21st, 2005 02:21 am |
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I don't hate Canada or Canadians. Some of the hottest strippers I've ever seen were Canadians. 
Montreal is a great city.
Montreal smoked meat sandwiches are the bomb.
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The Libertarian
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Posted: Mon Feb 21st, 2005 02:35 am |
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NewEnglandPatriots wrote: Exactly. They know more about us then we know about them. Americans can care less about what Canadians think because we don't even pay attention to half the things they talk about.
I thought Canadians were cool at first, but every Canadian I talk to had insult Americans at one point in their life time. I come to think, their just a bunch of jelous people looking up to America.
Tell me about it.
Go here and read the second to the last post.
http://www.perspectives.com/forums/forum71/29627-3.html
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candidate2025
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Posted: Mon Feb 21st, 2005 03:08 am |
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| BLAME CANADA! BLAME CANADA!-ROBBIN WILLIAMS
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CanadianGuy
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Posted: Mon Feb 21st, 2005 07:54 pm |
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I'm new to this forum and am so far find the reading very interesting. Personally I consider Americans good friends and our greatest ally. I've personally travelled a fair bit about the USA, have worked jointly with US Army & USMC soldiers through my years in the Canadian Army and currently live right near the Canada-US border in Niagara so I get to the states a fair bit. I think I've got a fair understanding of the US society & psyche. A few observations of mine from reading this forum and from past experience;
-Many of the "anti-Canadian" posters on this forum have completely no idea what they are talking about when it comes to Canadian facts and other international issues. Its downright humerous hearing some of their outrageous statements be it concerning terorism, Canadian defence, sovereignty, health care, etc... I seriously doubt many of you have been to Canada let alone find it on a map.
-Statements on Canadians are "pussies,wimps,etc.." WTF is that all about, where can you even begin to back those statements up with a shred of fact. Read some history books on Canada's participation in War and peacekeeping (also known as doing the dirty work the US is too afraid to do).
-The (US) nationalistic attitudes fused with lack of knowledge of international affairs and issues is kind of disturbing especially when you see the current administration of GWB saying the same things.
-Heres a challenge for some of the outspoken American posters who state the US is the best country in the world. How? By what indicators and list them (having a population of 290 million and a huge armed forces is not an "indicator"). Things like average life span, health status, level of education, economic output, etc.. would be objective facts (hint: the UN has indicators it uses to rate a countries "status" and guess which one has been 1st or in the top 3 alot).
-Last observation is that most Canadian posters and also many American posters seem to have their facts straight because perhaps they don't only watch FoxNews to get their news fix or listen to and believe their current Commander in Chief.
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ANI
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Posted: Mon Feb 21st, 2005 08:08 pm |
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| I don't think that many of us really dislike Canada...I do think that it is natural for people to be somewhat defensive...Canadian politics seem quite different than our own and we take a great deal of criticism from Canada and Canadians, much of which is unwarranted., i.e. the poll some months back where in a very high percentage of Canadian school kids thought that the "U.S. was evil", For Goodness sakes, how would you respond if the shoe was on the other foot? I think that it often becomes an issue of national pride.
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CanadianGuy
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Posted: Mon Feb 21st, 2005 08:25 pm |
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| Sure ANI I agree, there are Canadians who should tone down their ridiculous rhetoric. We are actually fairly different societies but look the same on the surface so we're going to have ideological differences and its often fun to point them out. Unfortunately the average nationalistic, right wing American (as evidenced on this board) spews out some really absurd stuff. For us (Canadians) its like having a best friend (the US) who says outrageous, ridiculous things that incite anger in others. You get kind of embarrassed and wonder what the hell is wrong with him, maybe even tell him to shut up but hopefully still remain friends.
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ScoobyDee
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Posted: Mon Feb 21st, 2005 10:35 pm |
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Canada's fine. The people that badmouth Canada make a way of life of badmouthing things, people and places.
They are angry little piss-ants that hate themselves and their lives so much that it just spills over.
Let 'em rot in their own fecallly-impacted lives.
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Big Tex
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Posted: Mon Feb 21st, 2005 11:14 pm |
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| I personally like Canada,like Canucks.I have been there ,had a good time.I love the country,its a beautiful place.I disagree with some of their politics but who cares?If you guys can do anything to save the hockey season...I will appreciate it.
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VonHeaterbox
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Posted: Sat Mar 19th, 2005 04:12 pm |
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| Canada is a land of hypocrites and freeloaders. Martins Liberals have reduced Canada to 3rd world status.
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HJNTX
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Posted: Sat Mar 19th, 2005 04:27 pm |
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VonHeaterbox wrote: Canada is a land of hypocrites and freeloaders. Martins Liberals have reduced Canada to 3rd world status. BUMP ..When you can't take a stand for something , you fall for anything ...They can disrespect our country and they know we will not do anything about it ..In order for us to protect our country, they know we must ensure their protection ...Last edited on Sat Mar 19th, 2005 04:28 pm by HJNTX
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VonHeaterbox
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Posted: Sat Mar 19th, 2005 04:35 pm |
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Canada is a beautiful place where we teach our kids in school to hate America and what it stands for not realizing that we're just pissing in the wind.
After our last election which won the thieving Liberal party a minority govn't, the leader of the Canadian Muslim congress happily informed the world that the muslim vote from the last election won over 100 seats for the liberals party. Most of them in Toronto with a few in both Montreal and Vancouver. If you Americans really want to know why our Liberal dingbats in Paliament go out of their way to poke Americans in the eyes with sharp sticks when they're down is because they are deathly afraid of offending their Muslim voter base which keeps them in power. Its come to a point where we are second class citizens in our own country. They are bringing "Sharia' law to Canada that would allow them to treat their woman here the same way the legally do back home. You can no longer say Merry Christmas or the lords prayer in schools but schools and universities have to supply the Muslims with a place to drop and pray. In Holland the muslims who dissagree with free speech cut peoples throats in the street. I see that happening here in the near future. You Americans should be proud of having enough balls to do what nobody else does.Never mind Canada, we are so hopelessly lost bilingual multiculturalism. Maybe when America finished straightening out the mideast they could buzz by here and liberate us.
For the most part Canadians are good people and hopefully we can get rid of our lying, thieving, terrorist appeasing liberal Govn't bastards before they sink what was once a great nation. Now its a cesspool. Poor fuc*ing Canada!
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VonHeaterbox
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Posted: Sat Mar 19th, 2005 04:40 pm |
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An appeaser is one that feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill:
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WHOOPDIE-DOO
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Posted: Sat Mar 19th, 2005 04:56 pm |
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Mike wrote: Are there really beavers on your money? The nickle has a beaver on it....... Back during the klondike gold rush .... hookers were 5 cents a piece... Hence, the beaver on the nickle
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WHOOPDIE-DOO
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Posted: Sat Mar 19th, 2005 05:12 pm |
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Melvin Gibson wrote: Canada has not stuck by us. They mock us. They accuse us. They turn their backs on us. Why? Are we so bad? They embrace Hamas... and not us? What's the deal, Canadians? No problem with Hamas, but you have a problem with us? Let's hear it...
1) On 9/11 we opened up Canada to all incoming American air traffic. People took complete strangers (many of them Americans) into their homes without question.
2) Canada was beside America in the Gulf War of '91 with a full compliment of air and naval support.
3) The Canadia JTF2 (our version of Special Forces) was one of the most respected ground forces in Afghanistan during the search for bin Laden.
4) Canada has never and will never support any country if support is not warranted. Prime Minister Chretien asked Bush for proof of WMD's in Iraq and Bush's proof wasn't good enough. "Proof is proof; and when you have good proof, then it is proven." Frankly Canadian's (even those outraged by our refusal to join your so called "coalition of the willing" ) are now thankful that we didn't participate based on the American prpaganda that was being served up here.
5) A Canadian was just appointed by the American government to oversee the entire budget for the rebuilding of Iraq and our government agreed to let the person do it. (Name escapes me right now.)
6) Where the hell was America in WWII? Canada begged for help. Along with Britain we were being wiped out. You guys didn't show up until it was too late. You were more than happy to sell us bullets though.
7) You better speak to some war vetrans from Korea and Vietnam and WWII... The stories of the toughness of Canadian soldiers is legendary. Stop by the Netherlands some day. Or go to Italy where one Canadian solder either captured or killed more than 200 German soldiers alone.
It's not that we DON'T support America, it's more a case of WE WON'T support America because the majority of voters are against the war.
You guiys elected a pro war government we elected an anti-war government. Shaddup already, it's how the American idea of democracy works. Learn to deal you whining little puss.
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WHOOPDIE-DOO
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Posted: Sat Mar 19th, 2005 05:19 pm |
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Melvin Gibson wrote: Canada_Is_The_Best_Country wrote: What's your reason of hating us? Canada nad USA are Brothers/Sisters!
To stick with that metaphor, it's the brother or sister you don't talk to for 20 or so years. Until they come knocking on your door one day because they need money from you...
Get your facts straight you ignorsant putz....
CANADA: Deficit Free for nearly ten years. No major federal tax hike in almost 12.
National debt has been reduced by 25 billion in only five years.
Why on earth would we need a loan from you?
America: Debt---- Huge! Deficit-------Growing
Maybe you would like we should send some liberals down
to manage your money seeing that your government is doing
poor job.
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WHOOPDIE-DOO
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Posted: Sat Mar 19th, 2005 05:21 pm |
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Melvin Gibson wrote: Ren wrote: Canada_Is_The_Best_Country wrote: What's your reason of hating us? Canada nad USA are Brothers/Sisters!
Apparently bashing from Mel is a sign of affection you see... and not an element of hate.
Close, but the word is indifference. They matter not either way. The comments from their Prime Minister and other governmental aides are just nuisances that only show their real colors.
It's okay, we know now.
What comments? How about some example bright eyes?
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