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KeepOurFreedoms
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911 - Aircraft Parts As
A Clue To Their Identity
The Precautionary Principle


By George Nelson
Colonel, USAF (ret.)
4-23-5

The precautionary principle is based on the fact that the failure to prove a proposition completely does not disprove the proposition. If the proposition warns of an ongoing or oncoming disaster (e.g. global warming) it is wise to take precautions. The proposition arrived at here is this: the 911 hijackings and damage to buildings were not the work of Arab terrorists, but appear to have been part of a black operation carried out with the cooperation of elements in our government.
 
In July, 1965, I had just been commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the U. S. Air Force after taking a solemn oath that I would protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that I would bear true faith and allegiance to the same. I took that oath very seriously. It was my constant companion throughout a thirty-year military career in the field of aircraft maintenance.
 
As an additional duty, aircraft maintenance officers are occasionally tasked as members of aircraft accident investigation boards and my personal experience was no exception. In 1989 I graduated from the Aircraft Mishap Investigation Course at the Institute of Safety and Systems Management at the University of Southern California. In addition to my direct participation as an aircraft accident investigator, I reviewed countless aircraft accident investigation reports for thoroughness and comprehensive conclusions for the Inspector General, HQ Pacific Air Forces during the height of the Vietnam conflict.
 
In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. This is because every military and civilian passenger-carrying aircraft have many parts that are identified for safety of flight. That is, if any of the parts were to fail at any time during a flight, the failure would likely result in the catastrophic loss of aircraft and passengers. Consequently, these parts are individually controlled by a distinctive serial number and tracked by a records section of the maintenance operation and by another section called plans and scheduling.
 
Following a certain number of flying hours or, in the case of landing gears, a certain number of takeoff-and-landing cycles, these critical parts are required to be changed, overhauled or inspected by specialist mechanics. When these parts are installed, their serial numbers are married to the aircraft registration numbers in the aircraft records and the plans and scheduling section will notify maintenance specialists when the parts must be replaced. If the parts are not replaced within specified time or cycle limits, the airplane will normally be grounded until the maintenance action is completed. Most of these time-change parts, whether hydraulic flight surface actuators , pumps, landing gears, engines or engine components, are virtually indestructible. It would be impossible for an ordinary fire resulting from an airplane crash to destroy or obliterate all of those critical time-change parts or their serial numbers. I repeat, impossible.
 
Considering the catastrophic incidents of September 11 2001, certain troubling but irrefutable conclusions must be drawn from the known facts. I get no personal pleasure or satisfaction from reporting my own assessment of these facts.
 
United Airlines Flight 93
 
This flight was reported by the federal government to be a Boeing 757 aircraft, registration number N591UA, carrying 45 persons, including four Arab hijackers who had taken control of the aircraft, crashing the plane in a Pennsylvania farm field.
 
Aerial photos of the alleged crash site were made available to the general public. They show a significant hole in the ground, but private investigators were not allowed to come anywhere near the crash site. If an aircraft crash caused the hole in the ground, there would have literally hundreds of serially-controlled time-change parts within the hole that would have proved beyond any shadow of doubt the precise tail-number or identity of the aircraft. However, the the government has not produced any hard evidence that would prove beyond a doubt that the specifically alleged aircraft crashed at that site. On the contrary, it has been reported that the aircraft, registry number N591UA, is still in operation.
 
American Airlines Flight 11
 
This flight was reported by the government to be a Boeing 767, registration number N334AA, carrying 92 people, including five Arabs who had hijacked the plane. This plane was reported to have crashed into the north tower of the WTC complex of buildings.
 
Again, the government would have no trouble proving its case if only a few of the hundreds of serially controlled parts had been collected to positively identify the aircraft. A Boeing 767 landing gear or just one engine would have been easy to find and identify.
 
United Airlines Flight 175
 
This flight was reported to be a Boeing 767, registration number N612UA, carrying 65 people, including the crew and five hijackers. It reportedly flew into the south tower of the WTC.
 
Once more, the government has yet to produce one serially controlled part from the crash site that would have dispelled any questions as to the identity of the specific airplane.
 
American Airlines Flight 77
 
This was reported to be a Boeing 757, registration number N644AA, carrying 64 people, including the flight crew and five hijackers. This aircraft, with a 125-foot wingspan, was reported to have crashed into the Pentagon, leaving an entry hole no more than 65 feet wide.
 
Following cool-down of the resulting fire, this crash site would have been very easy to collect enough time-change equipment within 15 minutes to positively identify the aircraft registry. There was apparently some aerospace type of equipment found at the site but no attempt was made to produce aerial numbers or to identify the specific parts found. Some of the equipment removed from the building was actually hidden from public view.
 
Conclusion
 
The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. The hard evidence would have included hundreds of critical time-change aircraft items, plus security videotapes that were confiscated by the FBI immediately following each tragic episode.
 
With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. Regarding the planes that allegedly flew into the WTC towers, it is only just possible that heavy aircraft were involved in each incident, but no evidence has been produced that would add credence to the government's theoretical version of what actually caused the total destruction of the buildings, let alone proving the identity of the aircraft. That is the problem with the government's 911 story. It is time to apply the precautionary principle.
 
As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history.......
http://rense.com/general64/prec.htm 
pisces
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Alright.... I have to jump in here since I'm in the aviation maintenance business.

The guy doesn't know what he's talking about.  On most of those indestructable items, any identifying information such as part number/serial number are on a very thin metal plate.  Of course those plates would have melted in that sort of heat.

And, having read many NTSB conclusion reports from many fatal crashes, they are the only people who can come to a conclusion.  Also, having actually seen the remnants of destroyed aircraft involving fatalities, since my facility is occasionally summoned to do the "tear down", I can tell you that any maintenance technician cannot and does not know the cause.  These technicians strictly do "tear downs" in which they disassemble the parts of the aircraft.  This is done in order for the NTSB to do their investigation. 

I've heard technicians give their ideas/thoughts of cause of crash, and as of yet I've yet to hear a single one of them come to the same conclusion the NTSB has. 

Sorry my friend, but this mans statement is pretty much worthless.

 
Polemic Argumentation
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God Bless Amereica and the ability to get posted on the internet.  If the good colonel gets enough interest, a book will follow.

Of the two planes I know about, there were engines and other aircraft parts recovered and removed from the WTC to the land fill in Staten Island, where the FBI & NYPD were inspecting and cataloging every fragment and part.  There were dozens of recovery workers present, many of whom know the difference between a Lear Jet engine and a 747.  Besides there were thousands of eyewitnesses and video of both planes as they hit, so there can be little doubt. 

Nice try, anyhow.
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pisces wrote:
The guy doesn't know what he's talking about. On most of those indestructable items, any identifying information such as part number/serial number are on a very thin metal plate. Of course those plates would have melted in that sort of heat.

It's strange, though, that in no case in the history of the world -- before 9-11, or since -- has jet fuel (kerosene) been able to attain a temperature required to melt steel.

The fuel in the WTC burned away in a matter of seconds, and most of it exploded OUTSIDE the buildings.

I don't have any answers, but most of the "official" 9-11 fable falls apart under scrutiny. Too many things happened in the hijackers' favor. These were the luckiest bastards ever to walk the earth. Not only did they manage to enter the country and take flying lessons and board aircraft unhindered, but on the day they hijacked the planes no NORAD jets intercepted them because none were notified. These amateur pilots managed to take these planes, turn them off-course, fly them hundreds of miles to pinpoint their destinations, and make direct hits on their targets, which miraculously crumbled to the ground.

The list of miracles that occurred on 9-11 is truly stunning. Either these truly were the luckiest Arabs in the history of the world, or somebody inside our military-industrial-government complex gave them a helping hand. There's just no other rational explanation, and I don't believe in miracles. One plane, maybe; but not four.
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  Yes, I'm inclined to agree this is a little bogus. Many years ago I did Major accidents/incidents for the A.F. Back in those days I received piece parts, electro-mech, electronic and took them apart and inspected, and wrote up a report. This was called a TDR, or Teardown deficency report. Usually I would have a short time to do my work because some Col. was coming out. Usually, he would show up a few days late, look over things a little, then be off to the next fire to put out. Most of the stuff I got was from a fighter that probably had something like a compressor stall. There was a standard way to write the report. For parts like these removal was by impact. The B52 is over 50 years old. The life cycle of some of the parts like this guy is talking about are long too. Even on a good actuator (for example) that might be pulled off a plane, the name plate might be beat up and hard to read. I didn't get items off of planes that burned up. I wouldn't be able to evaluate them. I noticed he said he was in for over 30 years. The record keeping like he was talking about had a lot of holes in it up until the late 80s or so. I don't know how good the record keeping is at the FAA.
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pisces wrote: The guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
 

Another red flag on this self-proclaimed "colonel" is his complete lack of understanding of simple crash investigation procedure as illustrated by this quote:

but private investigators were not allowed to come anywhere near the crash site
The primary concern in any crash investigation is preserving the integrity of the evidence. Not only would a private investigator not be allowed "to come anywhere near the crash site,"  official members of the response team (such as perimeter security officers) would be similarly restricted.

To put it in perspective, the key piece of foresic evidence that tied the bomb aboard PanAm 103 to the Lybian intelligence service was a fragment of circuit board used in the detonator the size of your thumbnail among the wreckage of a fully-loaded 747.

It's difficult for me to reconcile the fact that a USAF colonel would find this security procedure remarkable.
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KeepOurFreedoms wrote:

911 - Aircraft Parts As
A Clue To Their Identity
The Precautionary Principle


By George Nelson
Colonel, USAF (ret.)
4-23-5

The precautionary principle is based on the fact that the failure to prove a proposition completely does not disprove the proposition. If the proposition warns of an ongoing or oncoming disaster (e.g. global warming) it is wise to take precautions. The proposition arrived at here is this: the 911 hijackings and damage to buildings were not the work of Arab terrorists, but appear to have been part of a black operation carried out with the cooperation of elements in our government.
 
In July, 1965, I had just been commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the U. S. Air Force after taking a solemn oath that I would protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that I would bear true faith and allegiance to the same. I took that oath very seriously. It was my constant companion throughout a thirty-year military career in the field of aircraft maintenance.
 
As an additional duty, aircraft maintenance officers are occasionally tasked as members of aircraft accident investigation boards and my personal experience was no exception. In 1989 I graduated from the Aircraft Mishap Investigation Course at the Institute of Safety and Systems Management at the University of Southern California. In addition to my direct participation as an aircraft accident investigator, I reviewed countless aircraft accident investigation reports for thoroughness and comprehensive conclusions for the Inspector General, HQ Pacific Air Forces during the height of the Vietnam conflict.
 
In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. This is because every military and civilian passenger-carrying aircraft have many parts that are identified for safety of flight. That is, if any of the parts were to fail at any time during a flight, the failure would likely result in the catastrophic loss of aircraft and passengers. Consequently, these parts are individually controlled by a distinctive serial number and tracked by a records section of the maintenance operation and by another section called plans and scheduling.
 
Following a certain number of flying hours or, in the case of landing gears, a certain number of takeoff-and-landing cycles, these critical parts are required to be changed, overhauled or inspected by specialist mechanics. When these parts are installed, their serial numbers are married to the aircraft registration numbers in the aircraft records and the plans and scheduling section will notify maintenance specialists when the parts must be replaced. If the parts are not replaced within specified time or cycle limits, the airplane will normally be grounded until the maintenance action is completed. Most of these time-change parts, whether hydraulic flight surface actuators , pumps, landing gears, engines or engine components, are virtually indestructible. It would be impossible for an ordinary fire resulting from an airplane crash to destroy or obliterate all of those critical time-change parts or their serial numbers. I repeat, impossible.
 
Considering the catastrophic incidents of September 11 2001, certain troubling but irrefutable conclusions must be drawn from the known facts. I get no personal pleasure or satisfaction from reporting my own assessment of these facts.
 
United Airlines Flight 93
 
This flight was reported by the federal government to be a Boeing 757 aircraft, registration number N591UA, carrying 45 persons, including four Arab hijackers who had taken control of the aircraft, crashing the plane in a Pennsylvania farm field.
 
Aerial photos of the alleged crash site were made available to the general public. They show a significant hole in the ground, but private investigators were not allowed to come anywhere near the crash site. If an aircraft crash caused the hole in the ground, there would have literally hundreds of serially-controlled time-change parts within the hole that would have proved beyond any shadow of doubt the precise tail-number or identity of the aircraft. However, the the government has not produced any hard evidence that would prove beyond a doubt that the specifically alleged aircraft crashed at that site. On the contrary, it has been reported that the aircraft, registry number N591UA, is still in operation.
 
American Airlines Flight 11
 
This flight was reported by the government to be a Boeing 767, registration number N334AA, carrying 92 people, including five Arabs who had hijacked the plane. This plane was reported to have crashed into the north tower of the WTC complex of buildings.
 
Again, the government would have no trouble proving its case if only a few of the hundreds of serially controlled parts had been collected to positively identify the aircraft. A Boeing 767 landing gear or just one engine would have been easy to find and identify.
 
United Airlines Flight 175
 
This flight was reported to be a Boeing 767, registration number N612UA, carrying 65 people, including the crew and five hijackers. It reportedly flew into the south tower of the WTC.
 
Once more, the government has yet to produce one serially controlled part from the crash site that would have dispelled any questions as to the identity of the specific airplane.
 
American Airlines Flight 77
 
This was reported to be a Boeing 757, registration number N644AA, carrying 64 people, including the flight crew and five hijackers. This aircraft, with a 125-foot wingspan, was reported to have crashed into the Pentagon, leaving an entry hole no more than 65 feet wide.
 
Following cool-down of the resulting fire, this crash site would have been very easy to collect enough time-change equipment within 15 minutes to positively identify the aircraft registry. There was apparently some aerospace type of equipment found at the site but no attempt was made to produce aerial numbers or to identify the specific parts found. Some of the equipment removed from the building was actually hidden from public view.
 
Conclusion
 
The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. The hard evidence would have included hundreds of critical time-change aircraft items, plus security videotapes that were confiscated by the FBI immediately following each tragic episode.
 
With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. Regarding the planes that allegedly flew into the WTC towers, it is only just possible that heavy aircraft were involved in each incident, but no evidence has been produced that would add credence to the government's theoretical version of what actually caused the total destruction of the buildings, let alone proving the identity of the aircraft. That is the problem with the government's 911 story. It is time to apply the precautionary principle.
 
As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history.......
http://rense.com/general64/prec.htm 
The author of this is a lunatic ...

Knight Templar
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Yes. He must be a lunatic.
As everyone knows, when airplanes crash, they instantly burn or melt into microscopic dust and blow away. There are never any remains. Even the massive engines, which are constructed of titanium and steel alloys are simply no match for the forces of nature when it comes to airplane crashes. The jet fuel burns at temperatures so hot, that it simply melts everything into nothingness. It's surprising that people would actually expect to find airplane parts at any of the 4 crash sites on 9/11. Silly humans. Look at some photos of other airplane crashes... what do you see? Nothing! That's right! The airplanes completely disappear!

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Yes I have been through this with these peeps a time or two now they also believe the plane at the pentagon vapourized too.
No airframe left, no seat frames, no overhead baggage doors,No Stainless Steel serving carts,No stainless steel food storage lockers,No tail section at the pentagon,the wings Vanished

yes we all forget that jet Fuel is so volatile
i went over all of this bringing flashpoint data burn time data burn temp data all of the above yet all they can EVER SEEM to do is call people NAMES

they are at least CONSISTENT on that point
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quote by piceses

"Alright.... I have to jump in here since I'm in the aviation maintenance business.

The guy doesn't know what he's talking about. On most of those indestructable items, any identifying information such as part number/serial number are on a very thin metal plate. Of course those plates would have melted in that sort of heat."
end quote

I used to be in the aviation maintinence business too...I was a "Nosepicker" or Jet Mechanic. you claim your in the business you know then as well as i do that there are many many parts that would have withstood the crash and NOT ALL OF THE TAGS would be destroyed thats just crazy and you know it


you know the flashpoints and real burn temps of aviation fuel there is no way that all of these items have burned away to dust.Look at the Pentagon Crash if your in aircraft maint you know about airframes and such...where is the airframe at the pentagon? where did the ENTIRE TAIL SECTION go? No seat frames scattered about? no luggage? no food service carts??? no overhead baggage sections? all of these thing vapourized???

and you in the Aviation maint feild ....TRULY BELIVE THE fires were so hot the melted steel and vapourized all parts of the Aircraft???

deep down inside you knew better when you were typing the post use your knowledge Remember the Forrestol? all that jet fuel and ordinance on the decks and yet she stayed underway and that was jp-4 fuel much lower flashpoint higher temp burn you know the deal think about it a bit
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BS.

Need I say more?
Rokerijdude11
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i dont know are you capable?
Rokerijdude11
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of saying something that pertains to the story?
or are you just another punk in the pool?
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thats what i thought
robert stout
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On the street below the World Trade Center,one woman was pinned under a large chunk of jet engine...What happened to that piece of debri????[allamerican][allamerican][allamerican]
SIX3
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pisces wrote:
Alright.... I have to jump in here since I'm in the aviation maintenance business.

The guy doesn't know what he's talking about.  On most of those indestructable items, any identifying information such as part number/serial number are on a very thin metal plate.  Of course those plates would have melted in that sort of heat.

And, having read many NTSB conclusion reports from many fatal crashes, they are the only people who can come to a conclusion.  Also, having actually seen the remnants of destroyed aircraft involving fatalities, since my facility is occasionally summoned to do the "tear down", I can tell you that any maintenance technician cannot and does not know the cause.  These technicians strictly do "tear downs" in which they disassemble the parts of the aircraft.  This is done in order for the NTSB to do their investigation. 

I've heard technicians give their ideas/thoughts of cause of crash, and as of yet I've yet to hear a single one of them come to the same conclusion the NTSB has. 

Sorry my friend, but this mans statement is pretty much worthless.

 

Doesnt Jet fuel burn at around 1800 to 2000 degrees?
Doesnt aircraft metal melt at somewhere around 5000+ degrees or higher? Paper, dry wall, carpet, office equipment, none of them burn hot enough as fuel to melt metal. So how again did the ID marks melt?
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And what job exactly does a Jet Engine do???
oh yeah it consumes air and mixes it with jet fuel to be BURNED AT HIGHEST CLEANEST TEMPS POSSIBLE TO CREATE THE COMPRESSION OF AIR NEEDED TO PRODUCE THRUST

jet engines basically contain large fireballs of buring fuel/air and the heated air is compressed to produce thrust
the temprature within the inside of the jet engine would burn at a higher temp and acleaner burn than jet fuel burning in open air

the engines and componenents would not have meleted nor would theryre id tags
SIX3
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Rokerijdude11 wrote:
And what job exactly does a Jet Engine do???
oh yeah it consumes air and mixes it with jet fuel to be BURNED AT HIGHEST CLEANEST TEMPS POSSIBLE TO CREATE THE COMPRESSION OF AIR NEEDED TO PRODUCE THRUST

jet engines basically contain large fireballs of buring fuel/air and the heated air is compressed to produce thrust
the temprature within the inside of the jet engine would burn at a higher temp and acleaner burn than jet fuel burning in open air

the engines and componenents would not have meleted nor would theryre id tags

Didnt they attribute the collapse to structure failure as a result of heat and temperature? What was on the planes that could burn so hot as to cause a collapse in only hours? It wasnt the jet fuel.

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robert stout wrote: On the street below the World Trade Center,one woman was pinned under a large chunk of jet engine...What happened to that piece of debri????[allamerican][allamerican][allamerican]Where is all of the debris...............plane and building parts?  You would think the government would keep it around for investigation.  It was a criminal act...........
SIX3
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KeepOurFreedoms wrote:
robert stout wrote: On the street below the World Trade Center,one woman was pinned under a large chunk of jet engine...What happened to that piece of debri????[allamerican][allamerican][allamerican]Where is all of the debris...............plane and building parts?  You would think the government would keep it around for investigation.  It was a criminal act...........

I still want to see the video tape from the hotel accross the street from the Pentagon and the gas station down the way that was confiscated minutes after the impact. The "official" tape showing the impact is time stamped on 9-12-01. I just dont get all the secracy. Whats with all the dead ends and cloak and dagger crap with 9-11. I would think that would even bother the most loyal supporters of this cabinent.

Last edited on Sun Apr 24th, 2005 06:08 am by SIX3
KeepOurFreedoms
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SIX3 wrote: KeepOurFreedoms wrote:
robert stout wrote: On the street below the World Trade Center,one woman was pinned under a large chunk of jet engine...What happened to that piece of debri????[allamerican][allamerican][allamerican]Where is all of the debris...............plane and building parts?  You would think the government would keep it around for investigation.  It was a criminal act...........

I still want to see the video tape from the hotel accross the street from the Pentagon and the gas station down the way that was confiscated minutes after the impact. The "official" tape showing the impact is time stamped on 9-12-01. I just dont get all the secracy. Whats with all the dead ends and cloak and dagger crap with 9-11. I would think that would even bother the most loyal supporters of this cabinent.Sounds like they have something to hide.  You know the FBI did the same think in OKC.
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The supposed "crash" of UA93 was really remarkable, and is a chapter of the story we really don't hear much about. To this day, no one is allowed near the crash site. In fact, the government bought all the land surrounding it. When the news started leaking out that there was no debris at the site, the "rumor" started floating around that the plane had been shot down. The shootdown was a fabricated "alternative theory" to explain the lack of debris, as the subsequent explanations claimed that the airplane's "debris field" covered an area of about 8 miles. Again, a plane which simply disintegrates into nothingness. Yeah... there were some little pieces of junk which were recovered, but, no engines, tail sections, or any of that. And... it wasn't a "hole" in the ground, either. It was more like a shallow trench.
I believe UA93 simply kept flying and landed at Cleveland Airport, as some reports stated. AA77 most likely overflew the Pentagon and landed at Reagan Airport... if it were in the area at all. Who knows.
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Knight Templar wrote: The supposed "crash" of UA93 was really remarkable, and is a chapter of the story we really don't hear much about.
I believe UA93 simply kept flying and landed at Cleveland Airport, as some reports stated. AA77 most likely overflew the Pentagon and landed at Reagan Airport... if it were in the area at all. Who knows.
Wait a minute, let's see how this would work. 
Somebody takes four planes that are populated with passengers and crews.  They turn off the transponders and deviate from their routes.  Two are seen flying into the upper stories of the WTC by thousands.  One is seen flying into the Pentagon by dozens, or more.  The last is in verbal communication with relatives of passengers who were permitted to call by those who are in command of the plane.  The passengers relate how passengers and crew were butchered by several men who gained access to the cockpit and were flying the plane and holding them.  The conversations continue until the passengers try to retake the plane and the transmissions from the plane all end at the same time - as it crashes.

Despite that 'evidence,' you believe 93 & 77 flew to airports?  And then what?  The 45 SOBs (Souls on Board) on United 93 and 64 SOBs on American 77 were marched through the terminals and shot?  How about the Air Traffic Controlers in the towers who would have seen the planes and any activity on the ground, like the plane NOT going to a terminal and being secured by a convoy of vehicles?  Those planes would have been very obvious by coming in without a transponder signal.  Would your black ops people have had the ATCs disappear, too?  And the passengers in other planes and terminals who may have seen something?  And the ground personnel?  And their families?  True, the plane would blend with the others at an airport, but if the plane were segregated, someone would notice.  And a civilian plane would be very out of place at a military field, so it would have been more memorable. 

And if they were allowed to continue their lives under threat of ?????, don't you think that there would be ONE participant who would have, at the very least, posted the story on the internet?  Someone, even a spook, who signed on to support and defend the Constitution and is asked to participate in something like you suggest and is outraged that it took place?  They wouldn't blow the whistle on it?  You don't believe the 'official version,' yet you're willing to accept stories that really don't wash?

The problem with all of these grandiose scheme theories is that there are too many people involved to guarantee the story won't come out.  From Roswell in 1947, to Flight 800 to the the 9/11 attacks, the stories of government perversion all involve casts of hundreds, some of whom would have been screwed by their bosses, angry at the government, angry at the results of an election and looking to discredit the winners, in need of confession or willing to put it into a book and take their chances to get the big bucks.  Somebody would have said something.

What would you do if you worked at the airport and saw a plane shipped to the far end of the airport and the passengers taken off and spirited away?  If you happened to write down its reg number and realized it was the one on the plane that was supposed to be down in DC or PA, would you keep it a secret?  Or do you think that everyone who might have been involved was a neocon and there was not one liberal around?

Give me a break!
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Knight Templar wrote: Yes. He must be a lunatic.
As everyone knows, when airplanes crash, they instantly burn or melt into microscopic dust and blow away. There are never any remains. Even the massive engines, which are constructed of titanium and steel alloys are simply no match for the forces of nature when it comes to airplane crashes. The jet fuel burns at temperatures so hot, that it simply melts everything into nothingness. It's surprising that people would actually expect to find airplane parts at any of the 4 crash sites on 9/11. Silly humans. Look at some photos of other airplane crashes... what do you see? Nothing! That's right! The airplanes completely disappear!

Attachment: ah ha.jpg (Downloaded 599 times)
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extol wrote: Knight Templar wrote: Yes. He must be a lunatic.
As everyone knows, when airplanes crash, they instantly burn or melt into microscopic dust and blow away. There are never any remains. Even the massive engines, which are constructed of titanium and steel alloys are simply no match for the forces of nature when it comes to airplane crashes. The jet fuel burns at temperatures so hot, that it simply melts everything into nothingness. It's surprising that people would actually expect to find airplane parts at any of the 4 crash sites on 9/11. Silly humans. Look at some photos of other airplane crashes... what do you see? Nothing! That's right! The airplanes completely disappear! remember 9/11 dont pick it apart.

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more wreakage

Attachment: more wreakage.jpg (Downloaded 258 times)

Last edited on Tue Apr 26th, 2005 02:40 am by extol
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even more

Attachment: wreakage.jpg (Downloaded 204 times)
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KeepOurFreedoms wrote: robert stout wrote: On the street below the World Trade Center,one woman was pinned under a large chunk of jet engine...What happened to that piece of debri????[allamerican][allamerican][allamerican]Where is all of the debris...............plane and building parts?  You would think the government would keep it around for investigation.  It was a criminal act...........didnt they take it to a dump?  why would they need to investigate it...it was a plane and its not like it would show who did it.
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extol wrote: KeepOurFreedoms wrote: robert stout wrote: On the street below the World Trade Center,one woman was pinned under a large chunk of jet engine...What happened to that piece of debri????[allamerican][allamerican][allamerican]Where is all of the debris...............plane and building parts?  You would think the government would keep it around for investigation.  It was a criminal act...........didnt they take it to a dump?  why would they need to investigate it...it was a plane and its not like it would show who did it.To repeat:  Of the two planes I know about, there were engines and other aircraft parts recovered and removed from the WTC to the land fill in Staten Island, where the FBI & NYPD were inspecting and cataloging every fragment and part.  There were dozens of recovery workers present, many of whom know the difference between a Lear Jet engine and a 747.  Besides there were thousands of eyewitnesses and video of both planes as they hit, so there can be little doubt. 

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Polemic Argumentation wrote: extol wrote: KeepOurFreedoms wrote: robert stout wrote: On the street below the World Trade Center,one woman was pinned under a large chunk of jet engine...What happened to that piece of debri????[allamerican][allamerican][allamerican]Where is all of the debris...............plane and building parts?  You would think the government would keep it around for investigation.  It was a criminal act...........didnt they take it to a dump?  why would they need to investigate it...it was a plane and its not like it would show who did it.To repeat:  Of the two planes I know about, there were engines and other aircraft parts recovered and removed from the WTC to the land fill in Staten Island, where the FBI & NYPD were inspecting and cataloging every fragment and part.  There were dozens of recovery workers present, many of whom know the difference between a Lear Jet engine and a 747.  Besides there were thousands of eyewitnesses and video of both planes as they hit, so there can be little doubt.  ok thanks.
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thanks extol for proving his point or trying to anyhow
somebody else said all the tags on all the aircraft parts would be gone melted dissapeared.... Your on our side now i see!! as you provided pictures of hunks of "some" aircraft on the lawn at the pentagon.........
Proving what myself Knight Templar and several others are saying.... that they did not all vapourize into dust....thanks i knew youd come over sooner or later. Thanks for proving our point that in fact there are several pieces of "some " aircraft present and all of those pieces as the poster of the original article said ....contain traceable serial or id numbers


Good job Extol thanks for your help there bud......glad to have you on board


PA i have posted some info and a Link concerning Cleveland Intl airport in another thread just the other day it would serve you well to look into that link and its associated info as this is one of the LEAST talked about LEAST known aspects of the 9-11 cover up

just the way you responded tells me you have NEVER looked at any info there or anywhere like it
please take a look read a bit and then TRY to convince me otherwise


back to my lil friend Extol.....
go back to English ...its spelled WRECKAGE not wreakage ...no big deal typos are ok ...just bustin ya balls a lil buddy

BTW the pictures you posted do not in any way justify the pentagon crash the wreckage you have shown is woefully inadequete to be the supposed flight smashing into the pentagon...

Again ill ask the obvious...wheres the Airframe?? ......the Tail section? .....overhead baggage compartments..........................food service storage lockers (stainless steel) .....food carts? seat frames????/ there just are too many things missing



And once again you have shown your tender age my friend

quote by Extol
"didnt they take it to a dump? why would they need to investigate it...it was a plane and its not like it would show who did it."

My god kid did you read that after you wrote it??? how stupid sounding can one person be??? no im sorry its not stupidity....in your case its inexperience naieve

Last edited on Tue Apr 26th, 2005 03:37 am by Rokerijdude11
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extol wrote:
extol wrote: Knight Templar wrote: Yes. He must be a lunatic.
As everyone knows, when airplanes crash, they instantly burn or melt into microscopic dust and blow away. There are never any remains. Even the massive engines, which are constructed of titanium and steel alloys are simply no match for the forces of nature when it comes to airplane crashes. The jet fuel burns at temperatures so hot, that it simply melts everything into nothingness. It's surprising that people would actually expect to find airplane parts at any of the 4 crash sites on 9/11. Silly humans. Look at some photos of other airplane crashes... what do you see? Nothing! That's right! The airplanes completely disappear! remember 9/11 dont pick it apart.

"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear-kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor-with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it ..." General Douglas MacArthur, 1957



Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" - Thomas Jefferson
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Rokerijdude11 wrote: thanks extol for proving his point or trying to anyhow
somebody else said all the tags on all the aircraft parts would be gone melted dissapeared.... Your on our side now i see!! as you provided pictures of hunks of "some" aircraft on the lawn at the pentagon.........
Proving what myself Knight Templar and several others are saying.... that they did not all vapourize into dust....thanks i knew youd come over sooner or later. Thanks for proving our point that in fact there are several pieces of "some " aircraft present and all of those pieces as the poster of the original article said ....contain traceable serial or id numbers  of course thier is wreakage....its because terrorists smashed into the buildings


Good job Extol thanks for your help there bud......glad to have you on board  im not on board....i dont even understand where you are trying to go with the wreakage idea


PA i have posted some info and a Link concerning Cleveland Intl airport in another thread just the other day it would serve you well to look into that link and its associated info as this is one of the LEAST talked about LEAST known aspects of the 9-11 cover up   not a cover up

just the way you responded tells me you have NEVER looked at any info there or anywhere like it
please take a look read a bit and then TRY to convince me otherwise


back to my lil friend Extol.....
go back to English ...its spelled WRECKAGE not wreakage ...no big deal typos are ok ...just bustin ya balls a lil buddy   i type fast ok

BTW the pictures you posted do not in any way justify the pentagon crash the wreckage you have shown is woefully inadequete to be the supposed flight smashing into the pentagon... 

Again ill ask the obvious...wheres the Airframe?? ......the Tail section? .....overhead baggage compartments..........................food service storage lockers (stainless steel) .....food carts? seat frames????/ there just are too many things missing  IN DIFFERENT PICTURES DUHHH...why would they take pictures of every freaking piece of wreakage?  they wouldnt.



And once again you have shown your tender age my friend  ohhh another age joke

quote by Extol
"didnt they take it to a dump? why would they need to investigate it...it was a plane and its not like it would show who did it."   well the plane wouldnt show us who did it would it...all it would do is show us wreakage of a plane.

My god kid did you read that after you wrote it??? how stupid sounding can one person be??? no im sorry its not stupidity....in your case its inexperience naieve   and you always complain that all i do is write insults....
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If they did a true investigation every square inch of anything remotely related to the crime would have been photographed.  EVERYTHING!!
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KeepOurFreedoms wrote: If they did a true investigation every square inch of anything remotely related to the crime would have been photographed.  EVERYTHING!!maybe they didnt show all of the pictures to the public.
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and also what point are you trying to make with the wreakage?
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The point is.......Where is all the wreckage?
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here you go

Attachment: ah ha.jpg (Downloaded 180 times)
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and dont even say "thats all"?  because i mean how do you think this wreakage got there?  did they sneak it in during all the chaos?  did it magically apear?
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EXTOL READ SLOWLY......
the original intent on this post was an ex airforce guy who was saying that all the aircraft pieces had tags on them with serial numbers and such making them "traceable"

then a few after that went on to say the guy is a nutcase or a lunatic that all the serial number tags would have melted or burned beyond recognition in the crash as all the metal "was so hot it melted all the id tags"....
ok you with that so far ?

then me and a few others went on to say no way that would happen that not all tags would melt or be rendered illegible
Knight templar even went on "TO MAKE FUN OF THAT THEORY"
Thats where you came in.....and DID NOT BOTHER TO READ BEFORE TRYING TO IMPOSE YOUR WISDOM ON US.......at which POINT YOU CROSSED LINES and came to our side....PROVIDING PICTURES OF AIRCRAFT PARTS LARGE ENOUGH AND INTACT TO HAVE THE SERIAL NUMBERS ON THEM

bringing it back to the start of the thread what the man said in the first place

in the end YOU HELPED US PROVE OUR POINT LIL BUDDY



quote by me and YOU

"Again ill ask the obvious...wheres the Airframe?? ......the Tail section? .....overhead baggage compartments..........................food service storage lockers (stainless steel) .....food carts? seat frames????/ there just are too many things missing IN DIFFERENT PICTURES DUHHH...why would they take pictures of every freaking piece of wreakage? they wouldnt."

look at what you wrote.....think about what i wrote and asked and then look at what you wrote again.......Cmon your smarter than this Extol

dont let your temper get in the way of the matters at hand your getting better as time goes on

i kind of like ya around actually...
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Rokerijdude11 wrote: PA i have posted some info and a Link concerning Cleveland Intl airport in another thread just the other day it would serve you well to look into that link and its associated info as this is one of the LEAST talked about LEAST known aspects of the 9-11 cover up
Probably because it never happened.  All of the 'facts' from your references are from chatter and gossip on the net, reports from news organizations and other soft sources.  There were 10,000 planes in US airspace when it was realized that there was an attack in progress and the White House ordered all general aviation to land at the nearest possible faclity.  Dozens of planes were quarrantined and hundreds of suspects were detained. Thousands of others were screened and released. 

The situation would have been confused, with little information and tons of conjecture.  Watch the talking heads during a breaking situation.  They are getting reports from the scene and trying to make sense of it on the fly.  In this case, someone says there are 69 passengers on one plane and when they call around about the other plane, plane X, someone says "200 passengers" but, as the info points out, they still had no idea of the ID of it.  United said that it might be Flt 93, because they had no confirmation that 93 was down in PA, so they go out on the air that it IS United 93.  Wrong, but it filled the air at the moment. 

The same happened in NYC.  The media announced that a bomb had caused the plume of brown dust/smoke as the first tower started to collapse.  It was a plausible reason for the cloud and the collapse, but it was a false story. 

just the way you responded tells me you have NEVER looked at any info there or anywhere like it
Not about phantom landings of planes that crashed.  I avoid masturbation sites.  Their information is so close to being believable, but can't stand up to close inspection. 

please take a look read a bit and then TRY to convince me otherwise
I've seen your work and realize that there's no chance.  You have already made up your mind based upon junk science web sites. 

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typical conservative Bulls***

I never claimed anything to be "FACT" just asked you to take a look at a site

youve seen my work???

which work is exactly mine?

Last edited on Tue Apr 26th, 2005 04:58 pm by Rokerijdude11
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and i notice you have dropped a part of your argument wonder why that is skippy?
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Polemic Argumentation wrote:
Rokerijdude11 wrote: PA i have posted some info and a Link concerning Cleveland Intl airport in another thread just the other day it would serve you well to look into that link and its associated info as this is one of the LEAST talked about LEAST known aspects of the 9-11 cover up
Probably because it never happened. All of the 'facts' from your references are from chatter and gossip on the net,Who said they were "my facts" you......? Bullshi* never claimed that to be true..and to your statement"probably because it never happened.......ok because you said so it neve happened right?? we are supposed to buy your story because you said so.....yeah right....... reports from news organizations and other soft sources. There were 10,000 planes in US airspace when it was realized that there was an attack in progress and the White House ordered all general aviation to land at the nearest possible faclity. Dozens of planes were quarrantined and hundreds of suspects were detained. Thousands of others were screened and released.

The situation would have been confused, with little information and tons of conjecture. Watch the talking heads during a breaking situation. They are getting reports from the scene and trying to make sense of it on the fly. In this case, someone says there are 69 passengers on one plane and when they call around about the other plane, plane X, someone says "200 passengers" but, as the info points out, they still had no idea of the ID of it. United said that it might be Flt 93, because they had no confirmation that 93 was down in PA, so they go out on the air that it IS United 93. Wrong, but it filled the air at the moment.

The same happened in NYC. The media announced that a bomb had caused the plume of brown dust/smoke as the first tower started to collapse. It was a plausible reason for the cloud and the collapse, but it was a false story.

just the way you responded tells me you have NEVER looked at any info there or anywhere like it
Not about phantom landings of planes that crashed. I avoid masturbation sites. Their information is so close to being believable, but can't stand up to close inspection.

please take a look read a bit and then TRY to convince me otherwise
I've seen your work and realize that there's no chance. You have already made up your mind based upon junk science web sites.
based upon junk science websites......you know that to be a fact? you know EXACTLY where i get all my info? interesting tell me more great seeing one........you have no clue as to where my info comes from if i post a link to something i find interesting it dosent mean that i got all my info there.....what a tool where did you get all your refutable facts??? can you present an AIRTIGHT CASE?????

ill bet not ....no i cant either thats not the point though you the great seeing one have spoken can you back you bullshi* with fact??? can you even try????

faithful servant= sheep
Faithful servant= Blind patriot

I know you got all you info from the feds we all know how well they tell the truth.....or could your info be from Bullshi* websites and soft news sources too? see around Skippy


Just Remember

It is us

"The American Patriots" who are keeping YOUR butt safe it aint Dubya and co.
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Rokerijdude11 wrote: EXTOL READ SLOWLY......
the original intent on this post was an ex airforce guy who was saying that all the aircraft pieces had tags on them with serial numbers and such making them "traceable" 

then a few after that went on to say the guy is a nutcase or a lunatic that all the serial number tags would have melted or burned beyond recognition in the crash as all the metal "was so hot it melted all the id tags"....
ok you with that so far ?  yes...they would have burned

then me and a few others went on to say no way that would happen that not all tags would melt or be rendered illegible
Knight templar even went on "TO MAKE FUN OF THAT THEORY"
Thats where you came in.....and DID NOT BOTHER TO READ BEFORE TRYING TO IMPOSE YOUR WISDOM ON US.......at which POINT YOU CROSSED LINES and came to our side....PROVIDING PICTURES OF AIRCRAFT PARTS LARGE ENOUGH AND INTACT TO HAVE THE SERIAL NUMBERS ON THEM  sorry for not reading...i assumed that like always you have no valid point.  so what if they would be large enough...the tags would have burned off....and by tracible do you mean which country it is from?  if so than that plane was from america.

bringing it back to the start of the thread what the man said in the first place

in the end YOU HELPED US PROVE OUR POINT LIL BUDDY



quote by me and YOU

"Again ill ask the obvious...wheres the Airframe?? ......the Tail section? .....overhead baggage compartments..........................food service storage lockers (stainless steel) .....food carts? seat frames????/ there just are too many things missing IN DIFFERENT PICTURES DUHHH...why would they take pictures of every freaking piece of wreakage? they wouldnt."

look at what you wrote.....think about what i wrote and asked and then look at what you wrote again.......Cmon your smarter than this Extol

dont let your temper get in the way of the matters at hand your getting better as time goes on

i kind of like ya around actually...nice to be around.
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extol wrote:
Rokerijdude11 wrote: EXTOL READ SLOWLY......
the original intent on this post was an ex airforce guy who was saying that all the aircraft pieces had tags on them with serial numbers and such making them "traceable"

then a few after that went on to say the guy is a nutcase or a lunatic that all the serial number tags would have melted or burned beyond recognition in the crash as all the metal "was so hot it melted all the id tags"....
ok you with that so far ? yes...they would have burnedExtol start at the beginning read the entire thread before you embarrass yourself any further

then me and a few others went on to say no way that would happen that not all tags would melt or be rendered illegible
Knight templar even went on "TO MAKE FUN OF THAT THEORY"
Thats where you came in.....and DID NOT BOTHER TO READ BEFORE TRYING TO IMPOSE YOUR WISDOM ON US.......at which POINT YOU CROSSED LINES and came to our side....PROVIDING PICTURES OF AIRCRAFT PARTS LARGE ENOUGH AND INTACT TO HAVE THE SERIAL NUMBERS ON THEM sorry for not reading...i assumed that like always you have no valid point. so what if they would be large enough...the tags would have burned off....and by tracible do you mean which country it is from? if so than that plane was from america. Again EXTOL you need to start at the beginning read the whole thread you are looking arrogant and silly right now.....the parts are traceable as to what aircraft they belonged to what type who built it when it was manufactured etc.... cross referencing would make SIMPLE IDENTIFICATION of the aircraft the tags did NOT ALL MELT you know that YOU SHOWED US PICS that were more than large enough and completly intact they would have provided the serial numbers in question

bringing it back to the start of the thread what the man said in the first place

in the end YOU HELPED US PROVE OUR POINT LIL BUDDY



quote by me and YOU

"Again ill ask the obvious...wheres the Airframe?? ......the Tail section? .....overhead baggage compartments..........................food service storage lockers (stainless steel) .....food carts? seat frames????/ there just are too many things missing IN DIFFERENT PICTURES DUHHH...why would they take pictures of every freaking piece of wreakage? they wouldnt."

look at what you wrote.....think about what i wrote and asked and then look at what you wrote again.......Cmon your smarter than this Extol

dont let your temper get in the way of the matters at hand your getting better as time goes on

i kind of like ya around actually...nice to be around. still like ya around.........see ya soon :)
Polemic Argumentation
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Rokerijdude11 wrote: Polemic Argumentation wrote:
Rokerijdude11 wrote: PA i have posted some info and a Link concerning Cleveland Intl airport in another thread just the other day it would serve you well to look into that link and its associated info as this is one of the LEAST talked about LEAST known aspects of the 9-11 cover up
Probably because it never happened. All of the 'facts' from your references are from chatter and gossip on the net,Who said they were "my facts" you......? Bulls*** never claimed that to be true..and to your statement"probably because it never happened.......ok because you said so it neve happened right?? we are supposed to buy your story because you said so.....yeah right.......
Sorry lady, your post, your link = YOUR FACTS!!! 
Note that you stated "this is one of the LEAST talked about LEAST known aspects of the 9-11 cover up."  I said "probably because it never happened" because I'm a gentleman.  I was being polite and, after seeing how you can't handle criticism,  didn't want to offend you.  I should have said that it was because one would have to be as stupid as a stone to even consider this malarky as plausible. 

reports from news organizations and other soft sources. There were 10,000 planes in US airspace when it was realized that there was an attack in progress and the White House ordered all general aviation to land at the nearest possible faclity. Dozens of planes were quarrantined and hundreds of suspects were detained. Thousands of others were screened and released.

The situation would have been confused, with little information and tons of conjecture. Watch the talking heads during a breaking situation. They are getting reports from the scene and trying to make sense of it on the fly. In this case, someone says there are 69 passengers on one plane and when they call around about the other plane, plane X, someone says "200 passengers" but, as the info points out, they still had no idea of the ID of it. United said that it might be Flt 93, because they had no confirmation that 93 was down in PA, so they go out on the air that it IS United 93. Wrong, but it filled the air at the moment.

The same happened in NYC. The media announced that a bomb had caused the plume of brown dust/smoke as the first tower started to collapse. It was a plausible reason for the cloud and the collapse, but it was a false story.

just the way you responded tells me you have NEVER looked at any info there or anywhere like it
Not about phantom landings of planes that crashed. I avoid masturbation sites. Their information is so close to being believable, but can't stand up to close inspection.

please take a look read a bit and then TRY to convince me otherwise
I've seen your work and realize that there's no chance. You have already made up your mind based upon junk science web sites.

youve seen my work???  which work is exactly mine?
380 odd other rambling dissertations that you have provided on a limited number of topics.  Abrasive, argumentative and juvenile diatrribes that are designed to illustrate your superiority, but reveal your flaws.  Like your need to subscribe to anti-authority figure conspiracies. 
Tell me, dear, how is your relationship with your father?
based upon junk science websites......you know that to be a fact? you know EXACTLY where i get all my info? interesting tell me more great seeing one........
Where else would you collect all these looney hypotheses?  There are facts, verified by eyewitnesses and evidence and then there is the conjecture and supposition (aka nonsense) that you parrot. 

you have no clue as to where my info comes from if i post a link to something i find interesting it dosent mean that i got all my info there.....
Oh, puleeeeeze!!!  At least have the guts to stand up for your convictions.  If you thought it was BS, then you should have acknowledged that BEFORE you presented it as your concept, especially when you add, "please take a look read a bit and then TRY to convince me otherwise."  If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't offer a challenge to be 'convinced otherwise.'

what a tool where did you get all your refutable facts??? can you present an AIRTIGHT CASE?????
Check with http://www.casketxpress.com/  They can even get you one that is hermetically sealed.

ill bet not ....no i cant either thats not the point though you the great seeing one have spoken can you back you bulls*** with fact??? can you even try????
It would be a waste of time, so I'll leave you to your ignorance.

faithful servant= sheep
Faithful servant= Blind patriot
How quaint, but you need not brag about it.  As long as you realize it is your problem, you can work to gain the knowledge to lead and defend the Constitution.  Maybe even be a useful citizen.

I know you got all you info from the feds we all know how well they tell the truth.....or could your info be from Bulls*** websites and soft news sources too?
Girl, you are prima facie evidence that empty barrels make the most noise.

see around Skippy
Skippy??  Is that your imaginary friend who 'blocks your vision?'  Is that why you need to "see around" him?  There IS medication that can help your hallucinations, but, on second thought, he's probably the only 'friend' you have. 

Just Remember

It is us
WE! Not us.
It is we . . .   (Since you have been ragging others on their spelling and grammar, it's only fair to let you know that you have just gone too far.)  Sheesh.

"The American Patriots" who are keeping YOUR butt safe it aint Dubya and co.
Thank you for that profound utterance, but God help America if the likes of you got into the lower echelon of the chain of command.  The advantage of an all volunteer military is that it provides the opportunity to eliminate the deficient, leaving you to serve in the Salvation Army. 
"Put a nickle in the drum
help another drunken bum."

Let your patriots worry about your butt, honey.  I'll worry 'bout mine.
Rokerijdude11
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Location: Your Back Yard, USA
Posts: 2837
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well alllrighty then i musta had a sex change when i wasnt awake...

ok sweety pie

Rokerijdude11
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I already served my country BTW

extol
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Rokerijdude11 wrote: extol wrote:
Rokerijdude11 wrote: EXTOL READ SLOWLY......
the original intent on this post was an ex airforce guy who was saying that all the aircraft pieces had tags on them with serial numbers and such making them "traceable"

then a few after that went on to say the guy is a nutcase or a lunatic that all the serial number tags would have melted or burned beyond recognition in the crash as all the metal "was so hot it melted all the id tags"....
ok you with that so far ? yes...they would have burnedExtol start at the beginning read the entire thread before you embarrass yourself any further  ok i just did.

then me and a few others went on to say no way that would happen that not all tags would melt or be rendered illegible
Knight templar even went on "TO MAKE FUN OF THAT THEORY"
Thats where you came in.....and DID NOT BOTHER TO READ BEFORE TRYING TO IMPOSE YOUR WISDOM ON US.......at which POINT YOU CROSSED LINES and came to our side....PROVIDING PICTURES OF AIRCRAFT PARTS LARGE ENOUGH AND INTACT TO HAVE THE SERIAL NUMBERS ON THEM sorry for not reading...i assumed that like always you have no valid point. so what if they would be large enough...the tags would have burned off....and by tracible do you mean which country it is from? if so than that plane was from america. Again EXTOL you need to start at the beginning read the whole thread you are looking arrogant and silly right now.....the parts are traceable as to what aircraft they belonged to what type who built it when it was manufactured etc.... cross referencing would make SIMPLE IDENTIFICATION of the aircraft the tags did NOT ALL MELT you know that YOU SHOWED US PICS that were more than large enough and completly intact they would have provided the serial numbers in question   they already know the number of the aircraft so why would they care about the registration numbers.

bringing it back to the start of the thread what the man said in the first place

in the end YOU HELPED US PROVE OUR POINT LIL BUDDY



quote by me and YOU

"Again ill ask the obvious...wheres the Airframe?? ......the Tail section? .....overhead baggage compartments..........................food service storage lockers (stainless steel) .....food carts? seat frames????/ there just are too many things missing IN DIFFERENT PICTURES DUHHH...why would they take pictures of every freaking piece of wreakage? they wouldnt."

look at what you wrote.....think about what i wrote and asked and then look at what you wrote again.......Cmon your smarter than this Extol

dont let your temper get in the way of the matters at hand your getting better as time goes on

i kind of like ya around actually...nice to be around. still like ya around.........see ya soon :)ok....first of all metal can be scorched enough so that you cant read it anymore...secondly whos to say that they didnt look at the numbers on the plane if it wasnt scorched so much that you couldnt read it...how do you think they got the number of the flight that hit the pentagon and the trade centers.
Rokerijdude11
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Polemic Argumentation wrote:
Rokerijdude11 wrote: Polemic Argumentation wrote:
Rokerijdude11 wrote: PA i have posted some info and a Link concerning Cleveland Intl airport in another thread just the other day it would serve you well to look into that link and its associated info as this is one of the LEAST talked about LEAST known aspects of the 9-11 cover up
Probably because it never happened. All of the 'facts' from your references are from chatter and gossip on the net,Who said they were "my facts" you......? Bulls*** never claimed that to be true..and to your statement"probably because it never happened.......ok because you said so it neve happened right?? we are supposed to buy your story because you said so.....yeah right.......
Sorry lady, your post, your link = YOUR FACTS!!!
Note that you stated "this is one of the LEAST talked about LEAST known aspects of the 9-11 cover up." I said "probably because it never happened" because I'm a gentleman. I was being polite and, after seeing how you can't handle criticism, didn't want to offend you. I should have said that it was because one would have to be as stupid as a stone to even consider this malarky as plausible.

reports from news organizations and other soft sources. There were 10,000 planes in US airspace when it was realized that there was an attack in progress and the White House ordered all general aviation to land at the nearest possible faclity. Dozens of planes were quarrantined and hundreds of suspects were detained. Thousands of others were screened and released.

The situation would have been confused, with little information and tons of conjecture. Watch the talking heads during a breaking situation. They are getting reports from the scene and trying to make sense of it on the fly. In this case, someone says there are 69 passengers on one plane and when they call around about the other plane, plane X, someone says "200 passengers" but, as the info points out, they still had no idea of the ID of it. United said that it might be Flt 93, because they had no confirmation that 93 was down in PA, so they go out on the air that it IS United 93. Wrong, but it filled the air at the moment.

The same happened in NYC. The media announced that a bomb had caused the plume of brown dust/smoke as the first tower started to collapse. It was a plausible reason for the cloud and the collapse, but it was a false story.

just the way you responded tells me you have NEVER looked at any info there or anywhere like it
Not about phantom landings of planes that crashed. I avoid masturbation sites. Their information is so close to being believable, but can't stand up to close inspection.

please take a look read a bit and then TRY to convince me otherwise
I've seen your work and realize that there's no chance. You have already made up your mind based upon junk science web sites.

youve seen my work??? which work is exactly mine?
380 odd other rambling dissertations that you have provided on a limited number of topics. Abrasive, argumentative and juvenile diatrribes that are designed to illustrate your superiority, but reveal your flaws. Like your need to subscribe to anti-authority figure conspiracies.
Tell me, dear, how is your relationship with your father? well lets see my dad is DEAD thanks for asking s***heel........tell me sweety we really need to stop the assumptions on who we are talking with.......And I could easily say all those nice things about your rambling posts throughout the site....but i wont your entitled to your opinion what a tool are you gay by any chance?
based upon junk science websites......you know that to be a fact? you know EXACTLY where i get all my info? interesting tell me more great seeing one........
Where else would you collect all these looney hypotheses? There are facts, verified by eyewitnesses and evidence and then there is the conjecture and supposition (aka nonsense) that you parrot. they have these wonderful things out there....probably before your time though....they are called BOOKS you do know how to read that is evident as you even made a crack about my......wait les be exact" (Since you have been ragging others on their spelling and grammar, it's only fair to let you know that you have just gone too far.)" yes thats it well youll also see i was "JOKING" with EXTOL you get that part skippy?
there are a multitude of books out there on many of the areas i am interested in so its not all web related you seem to know yet you dont know SQUAT skippy...

you have no clue as to where my info comes from if i post a link to something i find interesting it dosent mean that i got all my info there.....
Oh, puleeeeeze!!! At least have the guts to stand up for your convictions. If you thought it was BS, then you should have acknowledged that BEFORE you presented it as your concept, especially when you add, here where your credibility starts to wane had you truly "read my works" as you put it my 380 something blah blah blah blah YOU WOULD KNOW that INDEED I DO STAND BEHIND MY CONVICTIONS..........your a tool plain and simple...Just because i posted a link to a site does not mean that i support or dont support it and if indeed i find it interesting enough for others to take a look ill post it...yes i find some evidence there in complete support of my opinion/theory and you come and say its all crap etc etc etc...when i ASKED YOU To provide anything beyond opinion and name calling.......what did i get typical Juvenile Bulls*** responses "please take a look read a bit and then TRY to convince me otherwise." If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't offer a challenge to be 'convinced otherwise.'

what a tool where did you get all your refutable facts??? can you present an AIRTIGHT CASE?????
Check with http://www.casketxpress.com/ They can even get you one that is hermetically sealed.
 typical response from a person of your calibre.....Total inability to assimilate any info worth a fock just name calling and vitrol why you must be a "CONNIE"
ill bet not ....no i cant either thats not the point though you the great seeing one have spoken can you back you bulls*** with fact??? can you even try????
It would be a waste of time, so I'll leave you to your ignorance. thanks for admitting you INABILITY to assimilate any reasoning on this matter it speaks volumes for you Ill bet you got a small C*ck too .......another TYPICAL response fromm the TOOL shed

faithful servant= sheep
Faithful servant= Blind patriot
How quaint, but you need not brag about it. As long as you realize it is your problem, you can work to gain the knowledge to lead and defend the Constitution. Maybe even be a useful citizen.

I know you got all you info from the feds we all know how well they tell the truth.....or could your info be from Bulls*** websites and soft news sources too?
Girl, you are prima facie evidence that empty barrels make the most noise.
 when cornered call em a name thats the way good jop creampuff
see around Skippy
Skippy?? Is that your imaginary friend who 'blocks your vision?' Is that why you need to "see around" him? There IS medication that can help your hallucinations, but, on second thought, he's probably the only 'friend' you have. BAWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH TOOL

Just Remember

It is us
WE! Not us.
It is we . . . (Since you have been ragging others on their spelling and grammar, it's only fair to let you know that you have just gone too far.) Sheesh. see above tool{/b]

"The American Patriots" who are keeping YOUR butt safe it aint Dubya and co.
Thank you for that profound utterance, but God help America if the likes of you got into the lower echelon of the chain of command. The advantage of an all volunteer military is that it provides the opportunity to eliminate the deficient, leaving you to serve in the Salvation Army. we will see about that when the time comes SKIPPY i ALREADY served My country once and I SWORE TO UPHOLD AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION TO THE DEATH and i will do just that I am an

"American Patriot"

not some subservient slave like you are Connie......
"Put a nickle in the drum
help another drunken bum."

Let your patriots worry about your butt, honey. I'll worry 'bout mine.


[/color=pink] you are gay arent you?

Last edited on Wed Apr 27th, 2005 01:38 am by Rokerijdude11
The Reverend BigBoa
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Polemic Argumentation wrote:
Knight Templar wrote: The supposed "crash" of UA93 was really remarkable, and is a chapter of the story we really don't hear much about.
I believe UA93 simply kept flying and landed at Cleveland Airport, as some reports stated. AA77 most likely overflew the Pentagon and landed at Reagan Airport... if it were in the area at all. Who knows.
Wait a minute, let's see how this would work.
Somebody takes four planes that are populated with passengers and crews. They turn off the transponders and deviate from their routes. Two are seen flying into the upper stories of the WTC by thousands. One is seen flying into the Pentagon by dozens, or more. The last is in verbal communication with relatives of passengers who were permitted to call by those who are in command of the plane. The passengers relate how passengers and crew were butchered by several men who gained access to the c***pit and were flying the plane and holding them. The conversations continue until the passengers try to retake the plane and the transmissions from the plane all end at the same time - as it crashes.

Despite that 'evidence,' you believe 93 & 77 flew to airports? And then what? The 45 SOBs (Souls on Board) on United 93 and 64 SOBs on American 77 were marched through the terminals and shot? How about the Air Traffic Controlers in the towers who would have seen the planes and any activity on the ground, like the plane NOT going to a terminal and being secured by a convoy of vehicles? Those planes would have been very obvious by coming in without a transponder signal. Would your black ops people have had the ATCs disappear, too? And the passengers in other planes and terminals who may have seen something? And the ground personnel? And their families? True, the plane would blend with the others at an airport, but if the plane were segregated, someone would notice. And a civilian plane would be very out of place at a military field, so it would have been more memorable.

And if they were allowed to continue their lives under threat of ?????, don't you think that there would be ONE participant who would have, at the very least, posted the story on the internet? Someone, even a spook, who signed on to support and defend the Constitution and is asked to participate in something like you suggest and is outraged that it took place? They wouldn't blow the whistle on it? You don't believe the 'official version,' yet you're willing to accept stories that really don't wash?

The problem with all of these grandiose scheme theories is that there are too many people involved to guarantee the story won't come out. From Roswell in 1947, to Flight 800 to the the 9/11 attacks, the stories of government perversion all involve casts of hundreds, some of whom would have been screwed by their bosses, angry at the government, angry at the results of an election and looking to discredit the winners, in need of confession or willing to put it into a book and take their chances to get the big bucks. Somebody would have said something.

What would you do if you worked at the airport and saw a plane shipped to the far end of the airport and the passengers taken off and spirited away? If you happened to write down its reg number and realized it was the one on the plane that was supposed to be down in DC or PA, would you keep it a secret? Or do you think that everyone who might have been involved was a neocon and there was not one liberal around?

Give me a break!


I'm with you PA. The ends to which some people will go in order to "prove" their conspiracy theories is unbelievable. It's not unlike their desire to "prove" that President Bush has that "secret oil plan". You remember, don't you? Initially, it was that plan "with Saudi Arabia for cheap oil". Well, it didn't take long to see how silly THAT sounded, so now it's his "secret plan to make oil companies rich"........

I guess it's just lucky for our President that nobody has "decided to talk",,,,,,

AH HAHAHAHA!!!!!
Rokerijdude11
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Location: Your Back Yard, USA
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extol wrote:
Rokerijdude11 wrote: extol wrote:
Rokerijdude11 wrote: EXTOL READ SLOWLY......
the original intent on this post was an ex airforce guy who was saying that all the aircraft pieces had tags on them with serial numbers and such making them "traceable"

then a few after that went on to say the guy is a nutcase or a lunatic that all the serial number tags would have melted or burned beyond recognition in the crash as all the metal "was so hot it melted all the id tags"....
ok you with that so far ? yes...they would have burnedExtol start at the beginning read the entire thread before you embarrass yourself any further ok i just did.

then me and a few others went on to say no way that would happen that not all tags would melt or be rendered illegible
Knight templar even went on "TO MAKE FUN OF THAT THEORY"
Thats where you came in.....and DID NOT BOTHER TO READ BEFORE TRYING TO IMPOSE YOUR WISDOM ON US.......at which POINT YOU CROSSED LINES and came to our side....PROVIDING PICTURES OF AIRCRAFT PARTS LARGE ENOUGH AND INTACT TO HAVE THE SERIAL NUMBERS ON THEM sorry for not reading...i assumed that like always you have no valid point. so what if they would be large enough...the tags would have burned off....and by tracible do you mean which country it is from? if so than that plane was from america. Again EXTOL you need to start at the beginning read the whole thread you are looking arrogant and silly right now.....the parts are traceable as to what aircraft they belonged to what type who built it when it was manufactured etc.... cross referencing would make SIMPLE IDENTIFICATION of the aircraft the tags did NOT ALL MELT you know that YOU SHOWED US PICS that were more than large enough and completly intact they would have provided the serial numbers in question they already know the number of the aircraft so why would they care about the registration numbers.

bringing it back to the start of the thread what the man said in the first place

in the end YOU HELPED US PROVE OUR POINT LIL BUDDY



quote by me and YOU

"Again ill ask the obvious...wheres the Airframe?? ......the Tail section? .....overhead baggage compartments..........................food service storage lockers (stainless steel) .....food carts? seat frames????/ there just are too many things missing IN DIFFERENT PICTURES DUHHH...why would they take pictures of every freaking piece of wreakage? they wouldnt."

look at what you wrote.....think about what i wrote and asked and then look at what you wrote again.......Cmon your smarter than this Extol

dont let your temper get in the way of the matters at hand your getting better as time goes on

i kind of like ya around actually...nice to be around. still like ya around.........see ya soon :)ok....first of all metal can be scorched enough so that you cant read it anymore...secondly whos to say that they didnt look at the numbers on the plane if it wasnt scorched so much that you couldnt read it...how do you think they got the number of the flight that hit the pentagon and the trade centers.

How scorched did those pieces you showed us look? Quit while your ahead its ok Extol......
extol
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Location: Never Fart In A Wetsuit, Illinois USA
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and what about my other explanation?
extol
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Location: Never Fart In A Wetsuit, Illinois USA
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they already know the number of the aircraft so why would they care about the registration numbers.

this one
Rokerijdude11
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Location: Your Back Yard, USA
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quote by Extol

" so why would they care about the registration numbers.?"
end quote



that would quite simply and very easily DISPEL ANY CONSPIRACY ABOUT WHAT CRASHED WHERE

a simple explanation a report and a photo or two and the conspiracy about what crashed into the pentagon is OVER FINITO end of story


serial Numbers would irrefutably show the "AIRTIGHT" case you all talk about but no one can produce........


a simple look at these tags......seee they are from ....blah blah blah built in 97 commissioned in 99 airframe number....blah blah blah flight number blah blah blah

really simple

Last edited on Wed Apr 27th, 2005 03:31 am by Rokerijdude11
Polemic Argumentation
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Rokerijdude11 wrote: Polemic Argumentation wrote:
Rokerijdude11 wrote: Polemic Argumentation wrote:
Rokerijdude11 wrote: PA i have posted some info and a Link concerning Cleveland Intl airport in another thread just the other day it would serve you well to look into that link and its associated info as this is one of the LEAST talked about LEAST known aspects of the 9-11 cover up
Probably because it never happened. All of the 'facts' from your references are from chatter and gossip on the net,Who said they were "my facts" you......? Bulls*** never claimed that to be true..and to your statement"probably because it never happened.......ok because you said so it neve happened right?? we are supposed to buy your story because you said so.....yeah right.......
Sorry lady, your post, your link = YOUR FACTS!!!
Note that you stated "this is one of the LEAST talked about LEAST known aspects of the 9-11 cover up." I said "probably because it never happened" because I'm a gentleman. I was being polite and, after seeing how you can't handle criticism, didn't want to offend you. I should have said that it was because one would have to be as stupid as a stone to even consider this malarky as plausible.

reports from news organizations and other soft sources. There were 10,000 planes in US airspace when it was realized that there was an attack in progress and the White House ordered all general aviation to land at the nearest possible faclity. Dozens of planes were quarrantined and hundreds of suspects were detained. Thousands of others were screened and released.

The situation would have been confused, with little information and tons of conjecture. Watch the talking heads during a breaking situation. They are getting reports from the scene and trying to make sense of it on the fly. In this case, someone says there are 69 passengers on one plane and when they call around about the other plane, plane X, someone says "200 passengers" but, as the info points out, they still had no idea of the ID of it. United said that it might be Flt 93, because they had no confirmation that 93 was down in PA, so they go out on the air that it IS United 93. Wrong, but it filled the air at the moment.

The same happened in NYC. The media announced that a bomb had caused the plume of brown dust/smoke as the first tower started to collapse. It was a plausible reason for the cloud and the collapse, but it was a false story.

just the way you responded tells me you have NEVER looked at any info there or anywhere like it
Not about phantom landings of planes that crashed. I avoid masturbation sites. Their information is so close to being believable, but can't stand up to close inspection.

please take a look read a bit and then TRY to convince me otherwise
I've seen your work and realize that there's no chance. You have already made up your mind based upon junk science web sites.

youve seen my work??? which work is exactly mine?
380 odd other rambling dissertations that you have provided on a limited number of topics. Abrasive, argumentative and juvenile diatrribes that are designed to illustrate your superiority, but reveal your flaws. Like your need to subscribe to anti-authority figure conspiracies.
Tell me, dear, how is your relationship with your father? well lets see my dad is DEAD thanks for asking s***heel........
Sorry to hear that.  You have my sincere condolences.  It's not fitting to talk poorly of the dead.  His son is another story!

tell me sweety we really need to stop the assumptions on who we are talking with.......And I could easily say all those nice things about your rambling posts throughout the site....but i wont your entitled to your opinion what a tool(1) are you gay by any chance?
No, why?  Are you looking for one? 
based upon junk science websites......you know that to be a fact? you know EXACTLY where i get all my info? interesting tell me more great seeing one........
Where else would you collect all these looney hypotheses? There are facts, verified by eyewitnesses and evidence and then there is the conjecture and supposition (aka nonsense) that you parrot. they have these wonderful things out there....probably before your time though....they are called BOOKS you do know how to read that is evident as you even made a crack about my......wait les be exact" (Since you have been ragging others on their spelling and grammar, it's only fair to let you know that you have just gone too far.)" yes thats it well youll also see i was "JOKING" with EXTOL you get that part skippy?
Yeah.  Third graders "KID" like that, too.  They'll say, "You are a stupid idiot."  and when their target reacts, they reply, "Only kidding!" but the damage is done.  You have that down pat.

there are a multitude of books out there on many of the areas i am interested in so its not all web related you seem to know yet you dont know SQUAT skippy...
When you get to the ones with small print and lots of words, you might find some that will put you on the right track.

you have no clue as to where my info comes from if i post a link to something i find interesting it dosent mean that i got all my info there.....
Oh, puleeeeeze!!! At least have the guts to stand up for your convictions. If you thought it was BS, then you should have acknowledged that BEFORE you presented it as your concept, especially when you add, here where your credibility starts to wane had you truly "read my works" as you put it my 380 something blah blah blah blah YOU WOULD KNOW that INDEED I DO STAND BEHIND MY CONVICTIONS..........
Is THAT what you call it?  Repeating the same nonsense over and over and getting angry when people try to reason with you?  You don't consider that your position might be lacking credibility, you don't care.  You just resort to name calling when you can't defend yourself.   

your a tool(2) plain and simple...
That seems to be a recurring theme of yours.  Who's tool?  Tool of what?  Is that a buzz word you acquired somewhere? 

Just because i posted a link to a site does not mean that i support or dont support it and if indeed i find it interesting enough for others to take a look ill post it...yes i find some evidence there in complete support of my opinion/theory and you come and say its all crap etc etc etc...when i ASKED YOU To provide anything beyond opinion and name calling.......what did i get typical Juvenile Bulls*** responses "please take a look read a bit and then TRY to convince me otherwise." If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't offer a challenge to be 'convinced otherwise.'
The statement still stands.

what a tool where did you get all your refutable facts??? can you present an AIRTIGHT CASE?????
Check with http://www.casketxpress.com/ They can even get you one that is hermetically sealed.
typical response from a person of your calibre.....Total inability to assimilate any info worth a fock just name calling and vitrol why you must be a "CONNIE"
Are you getting a cross between my reply and some other site?  Where do you see name calling & vitriol in my post?   You asked for an airtight case.  casketexpress delivers,

ill bet not ....no i cant either thats not the point though you the great seeing one have spoken can you back you bulls*** with fact??? can you even try????
It would be a waste of time, so I'll leave you to your ignorance. thanks for admitting you INABILITY to assimilate any reasoning on this matter it speaks volumes for you
Your ASSumption is wrong, as usual.  There is no admission or inability to rebut the silly crap you are arguing for.  It would be a waste of my time for two reasons - 
1) it would require detailed information that would be way over your level of comprehension
2) even if you did get enough to grasp the truth, the info would challenge your value system to where you could not accept it anyhow.

 Ill bet you got a small C*ck too .......[offtopic]
I would have thought that would have been more important to you if you were a girl.  Glad you cleared that up, but it seems that you really don't knpw when to keep your mouth shut. 
Anyhow, fifty bucks says you're wrong again.  Ask your wife or daughter.

another TYPICAL response fromm the TOOL(3) shed

faithful servant= sheep
Faithful servant= Blind patriot
How quaint, but you need not brag about it. As long as you realize it is your problem, you can work to gain the knowledge to lead and defend the Constitution. Maybe even be a useful citizen.

I know you got all you info from the feds we all know how well they tell the truth.....or could your info be from Bulls*** websites and soft news sources too?
Girl, you are prima facie evidence that empty barrels make the most noise.
when cornered call em a name thats the way good jop creampuff
see around Skippy
What name?  You write like a girl, so how is anyone else to know that you're not?

Skippy?? Is that your imaginary friend who 'blocks your vision?' Is that why you need to "see around" him? There IS medication that can help your hallucinations, but, on second thought, he's probably the only 'friend' you have. BAWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH TOOL(4)

Just Remember

It is us
WE! Not us.
It is we . . . (Since you have been ragging others on their spelling and grammar, it's only fair to let you know that you have just gone too far.) Sheesh. see above tool(5){/b]
Definitely a recurring theme.  Perseverating upon his tool.  I wonder what Freud say about that? 

"The American Patriots" who are keeping YOUR butt safe it aint Dubya and co.
Thank you for that profound utterance, but God help America if the likes of you got into the lower echelon of the chain of command. The advantage of an all volunteer military is that it provides the opportunity to eliminate the deficient, leaving you to serve in the Salvation Army. we will see about that when the time comes SKIPPY
You can man the bell and drum at Christmas. 

ding-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling.
put a nickle in the drum
and you'll be free.

 i ALREADY served My country once
Steward at the Officer's Mess? 
Only once?  And what happened?  Were you fired before your second meal??
Say - if you get hurt in the kitchen, do they give you a purple pork chop?

and I SWORE TO UPHOLD AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION TO THE DEATH and i will do just that I am an
[usa]"American Patriot" [usa]
Taa-daa    If you really were government issue, but it's not nice to take credit if it's not due.  I DO hope that you didn't dream that, too. 

not some subservient slave like you are
Freud says that Transferrence is when one attributes traits to others that they believe they, themselves, have.  How long have you felt like a subservient slave?

Connie......
you are gay arent you?
No, dude, not up there /\ and still not.  One of us obviously is, but it's not me. 

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Duplicate.

Last edited on Wed Apr 27th, 2005 05:44 am by Polemic Argumentation
Rokerijdude11
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More wasted typing i see.....again as usual no fact only opinions.....im not even gonna go all the way into answering all of your tirade as its a huge waste of time i gave you an oppurtunity to assimilate some factual basis for your rants

and in typical Connie fashion you WERE UNABLE TO DO SO
you see i have no need to prove myself especially not to the likes of an idiot like yourself I know my place i know the score and i AM HERE TO PROTECT freedom for putzes like you

in the end youll just roll over and submit your already doing it now so that will not change..But for your children we will be here we will protect freedom when you have been hauled off to work in a govt labor camp we will be the ones fighting to free you all

your just another sheep
you have proven that with each and every post youve made in this thread if you TRULY had any FACTS concerning any of this you surely would have used them at some point
you cannot.....cuz you dont have any REAL info just suppositions and opinions
just like A$$holes everyone has one

yours is just bigger than most

BTW which branch of the military did you serve in???
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Hey, Polemic... I have a crazy "Conspiracy Theory" for your consideration...
19 Arab terrorists (many on State Dept. Watch Lists) are all given visas to come to the USA. Many live on US military bases, and some even rent apartments from FBI agents.
They buy airline tickets for Sept. 11.. in their own names. A bunch of them are (supposedly) stopped and searched at their airports, but, not one is detained. No photos exist of ANY hijackers boarding any hijacked planes.
Using box-cutters and PLASTIC KNIVES, they successfully hijack 4 airplanes, and spend an hour and a half flying them around the Northeast Corridor, while the military can't seem to intercept ANY of them.
Wow! What a CRAZY Conspiracy Theory!!
extol
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Rokerijdude11 wrote: quote by Extol

" so why would they care about the registration numbers.?"
end quote



that would quite simply and very easily DISPEL ANY CONSPIRACY ABOUT WHAT CRASHED WHERE   they never guessed some people would doubt them so they never found the need to dispel any conspiracy theory.

a simple explanation a report and a photo or two and the conspiracy about what crashed into the pentagon is OVER FINITO end of story 


serial Numbers would irrefutably show the "AIRTIGHT" case you all talk about but no one can produce........


a simple look at these tags......seee they are from ....blah blah blah built in 97 commissioned in 99 airframe number....blah blah blah flight number blah blah blah

really simple so is my answer.its kind of like if your car got destroyed...you would expect everyone to beileve that  you didnt destroy your own car.
extol
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Knight Templar wrote: Hey, Polemic... I have a crazy "Conspiracy Theory" for your consideration...
19 Arab terrorists (many on State Dept. Watch Lists) are all given visas to come to the USA. Many live on US military bases, and some even rent apartments from FBI agents.
They buy airline tickets for Sept. 11.. in their own names. A bunch of them are (supposedly) stopped and searched at their airports, but, not one is detained. No photos exist of ANY hijackers boarding any hijacked planes.
Using box-cutters and PLASTIC KNIVES, they successfully hijack 4 airplanes, and spend an hour and a half flying them around the Northeast Corridor, while the military can't seem to intercept ANY of them.
Wow! What a CRAZY Conspiracy Theory!!
intercept them?  like shoot them down?  they had no idea at the time that the aircraft would crash into buildings.
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extol wrote:

intercept them? like shoot them down? they had no idea at the time that the aircraft would crash into buildings.
"Intercept" does not mean "shoot them down."
The military is ordered to "intercept" the wayward planes and find out what is wrong.
Ohh... after 8:46, they knew the planes were being crashed into buildings.
extol
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Knight Templar wrote: extol wrote:

intercept them? like shoot them down? they had no idea at the time that the aircraft would crash into buildings.
"Intercept" does not mean "shoot them down."
The military is ordered to "intercept" the wayward planes and find out what is wrong.
Ohh... after 8:46, they knew the planes were being crashed into buildings.well its a big sky and they made sure that there was no way to track them so its hard to find them.
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extol wrote:
its kind of like if your car got destroyed...you would expect everyone to beileve that you didnt destroy your own car.
Lots of people detroy their own cars.
It's called, "Insurance Fraud."
extol
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Knight Templar wrote: extol wrote:
its kind of like if your car got destroyed...you would expect everyone to beileve that you didnt destroy your own car.
Lots of people detroy their own cars.
It's called, "Insurance Fraud."
what im saying is if your car isnt destroyed by you...you just dont expect people to think that you did it.
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why not simply end the debate by producing the numbers?
it would make theyre story "AIRTIGHT"
KeepOurFreedoms
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extol wrote: Knight Templar wrote: extol wrote:

intercept them? like shoot them down? they had no idea at the time that the aircraft would crash into buildings.
"Intercept" does not mean "shoot them down."
The military is ordered to "intercept" the wayward planes and find out what is wrong.
Ohh... after 8:46, they knew the planes were being crashed into buildings.well its a big sky and they made sure that there was no way to track them so its hard to find them.How about Radar?  That is what NORAD is trained for.  Watching our airspace for "stray" planes.
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extol wrote:
Knight Templar wrote: extol wrote:

intercept them? like shoot them down? they had no idea at the time that the aircraft would crash into buildings.
"Intercept" does not mean "shoot them down."
The military is ordered to "intercept" the wayward planes and find out what is wrong.
Ohh... after 8:46, they knew the planes were being crashed into buildings.well its a big sky and they made sure that there was no way to track them so its hard to find them.
The transponder sends the plane's number and altitude to the ATC. Turing it off does not make the plane invisible to flight controllers. Also, the military tracks ALL objects flying over the US using their own systems.
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KeepOurFreedoms wrote: extol wrote: Knight Templar wrote: extol wrote:

intercept them? like shoot them down? they had no idea at the time that the aircraft would crash into buildings.
"Intercept" does not mean "shoot them down."
The military is ordered to "intercept" the wayward planes and find out what is wrong.
Ohh... after 8:46, they knew the planes were being crashed into buildings.well its a big sky and they made sure that there was no way to track them so its hard to find them.How about Radar?  That is what NORAD is trained for.  Watching our airspace for "stray" planes.

i belive that the radar that most airports used relyed on a signal from the plane...and you probably will ask why didnt they catch the other planes?  they just wernt thinking...it was hectic and everything was going crazy and it didnt occur to them that other planes could be headed towards other buildings at the time.
extol
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Knight Templar wrote: extol wrote:
Knight Templar wrote: extol wrote:

intercept them? like shoot them down? they had no idea at the time that the aircraft would crash into buildings.
"Intercept" does not mean "shoot them down."
The military is ordered to "intercept" the wayward planes and find out what is wrong.
Ohh... after 8:46, they knew the planes were being crashed into buildings.well its a big sky and they made sure that there was no way to track them so its hard to find them.
The transponder sends the plane's number and altitude to the ATC. Turing it off does not make the plane invisible to flight controllers. Also, the military tracks ALL objects flying over the US using their own systems.my other post should sum this up.
Rokerijdude11
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extol wrote:
KeepOurFreedoms wrote: extol wrote: Knight Templar wrote: extol wrote:

intercept them? like shoot them down? they had no idea at the time that the aircraft would crash into buildings.
"Intercept" does not mean "shoot them down."
The military is ordered to "intercept" the wayward planes and find out what is wrong.
Ohh... after 8:46, they knew the planes were being crashed into buildings.well its a big sky and they made sure that there was no way to track them so its hard to find them.How about Radar? That is what NORAD is trained for. Watching our airspace for "stray" planes.

i belive that the radar that most airports used relyed on a signal from the plane...and you probably will ask why didnt they catch the other planes? they just wernt thinking...it was hectic and everything was going crazy and it didnt occur to them that other planes could be headed towards other buildings at the time. they just werent thinking???? Extol...these guys get payed the BIG$$$$$$$$$$ to do just that THINK ON THEYRE TOES one of the highest paying highest STRESS RELATED jobs in the WORLD...they dontjust stop thinking

theyre JOB IS HECTIC AND CRAZY EVERY DAY you live in Blue Island you know then Ohare airport the BUSIEST airport in the world these guys are payed big to do theyre Job in a pressure cooker day in and day out....

they thrive on stress they eat it up chaos and hectic events are what make these guys tick......
Im sorry but There is NO WAY they were just not thinking......
Rokerijdude11
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quote by extol

"well its a big sky and they made sure that there was no way to track them so its hard to find them."


WHAT????????
extol wake up dude its a big sky and they have no way to track them?????
the most advanced military power on the GLOBE and you say they cant track planes in the big sky?????
what were you smokin when you posted that sentance??? get real man

everything in the sky is tracked .....PERIOD either by commercial/private interests or the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
extol
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Rokerijdude11 wrote: extol wrote:
KeepOurFreedoms wrote: extol wrote: Knight Templar wrote: extol wrote:

intercept them? like shoot them down? they had no idea at the time that the aircraft would crash into buildings.
"Intercept" does not mean "shoot them down."
The military is ordered to "intercept" the wayward planes and find out what is wrong.
Ohh... after 8:46, they knew the planes were being crashed into buildings.well its a big sky and they made sure that there was no way to track them so its hard to find them.How about Radar? That is what NORAD is trained for. Watching our airspace for "stray" planes.

i belive that the radar that most airports used relyed on a signal from the plane...and you probably will ask why didnt they catch the other planes? they just wernt thinking...it was hectic and everything was going crazy and it didnt occur to them that other planes could be headed towards other buildings at the time. they just werent thinking???? Extol...these guys get payed the BIG$$$$$$$$$$ to do just that THINK ON THEYRE TOES one of the highest paying highest STRESS RELATED jobs in the WORLD...they dontjust stop thinking

theyre JOB IS HECTIC AND CRAZY EVERY DAY you live in Blue Island you know then Ohare airport the BUSIEST airport in the world these guys are payed big to do theyre Job in a pressure cooker day in and day out....

they thrive on stress they eat it up chaos and hectic events are what make these guys tick......
Im sorry but There is NO WAY they were just not thinking......nothing they have done up to that point is as stressfull as multiple hijackings and then learning that they were used as missiles.
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what????your not making any sense Extol
none at all they EVEN TRAIN FOR SCENARIOS SIMILAR TO THIS..
how do you know where each air controller on that day was from? or what they have been through in theyre past?
were you employed there? are these freinds?


these ATC people are the best they could and WOULD have handled this situation with ease

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Rokerijdude11 wrote: what????your not making any sense Extol
none at all they EVEN TRAIN FOR SCENARIOS SIMILAR TO THIS..
how do you know where each air controller on that day was from? or what they have been through in theyre past?
were you employed there? are these freinds?


these ATC people are the best they could and WOULD have handled this situation with ease so do you think they were in on the consperousy?  just like you think the thousands of people who didnt go to the trade centers that day were?
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what????
your losing it dude
extol
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Rokerijdude11 wrote: what????
your losing it dudeno im just remembered an old quote from you...or was it keepourfreedoms?  well whatever the point is that every person that was tracking the plane would have to be in on the consperousy right?  or accually now that i think of it...why are we argueing about the air traffic controllers at o'hare?  the transponder was turned of so they had no part in this senario at all right?
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the norad system was responsible for our protection


NORAD is a bi-national United States and Canadian organization charged with warning of attack against North America, whether by aircraft, missiles, or space vehicles, utilizing mutual support arrangements with other commands. Aerospace control includes providing surveillance and control of Canadian and United States airspace. The job of NORAD is to know every inch of the skies over North America.
link to full article
http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/3/Elsis273-284.html


2) The United States Air Force (USAF) is the most technologically advanced and the most dominant military force ever known to man. There were seven Air Stations that were armed and on full alert to protect the continental United States on Tuesday September 11, 2001. The Air National Guard exclusively performs the air sovereignty mission in the continental United States, and those units fall under the control of the 1st Air Force based at Tyndall Air Force Base (AFB) in Panama City, Florida. The Air National Guard maintains seven alert sites with 14 fully armed fighters and pilots on call around the clock. Besides Tyndall AFB, alert birds also sit armed and ready at: Homestead Air Reserve Base (ARB), Homestead, Florida; Langley AFB, Hampton, Virginia; Otis Air National Guard (ANG), Falmouth, Massachusetts; Oregon ANG, Portland, Oregon; March ARB, Riverside, CA; and Ellington ANG, Houston, Texas.[3]

There were at least 28 other USAF bases that were in range of the 4 airliners on 911.[4




8:25 a.m.: Boston ATC notified several air traffic control centers that a hijack is in progress with American Airlines Flight 11. Boston air traffic control first lost communication with American Airlines Flight 11 more than 11 minutes ago. What took them so long to start to implement procedure? Why didn't they also notify North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) at this time? Or did they?

If they did follow procedure and notify NORAD at 8:25 and NORAD followed protocol and ordered the 102nd Fighter Wing of the Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts to scramble at say 8:26-two F-15s would have been airborne by no later than 8:32-these F-15s would have had at least 14 minutes and 26 seconds to reach the WTC before American Airlines Flight 11 impacts the north side of the North Tower (1 World Trade Center) at 8:46:26. If these two F-15s were flying at top speed, 14 minutes and 26 seconds is exactly twice the amount of time needed to reach the WTC. These two F-15s could have been at the WTC in just over 7 minutes, or as early as 8:39. Even a spokesperson for Otis said that their F-15s could reach the WTC in 10 to 12 minutes, which would have them there at 8:42 to 8:44.

These two F-15s could have easily intercepted American Airlines Flight 11. If only Boston ATC, which notified several air traffic control centers that a hijack is in progress with American Airlines Flight 11 at 8:25, had also notified NORAD. Why didn't they? Or did they follow procedure, and notify NORAD, and NORAD is lying about it? Let me state that it is NORAD's job to know every inch of the skies over North America, so they must have known that American Airlines Flight 11 was hijacked somewhere between 8:14 and 8:20.

8:26 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 11 is heading westnorthwest, its location is between Albany and Lake George, New York, when it suddenly makes a 100 degree turn to the south and starts heading directly toward New York City. American Airlines Flight 11 finds the Hudson River and follows it all the way south until it impacts the north side of the North Tower of the WTC.

Almost 40 miles north of the WTC on the Hudson River is by far the number one terrorist target in the United States, Indian Point and its 3 nuclear power stations, 2 of which are online. These 3 nuclear stations have accumulated 65 years worth of stockpiled highly radioactive waste. Indian Point is only 24 miles north of the New York City border. It is surrounded by the densest concentration of population in the United States, the northeast corridor. Why did American Airlines Flight 11 fly directly over the number one terrorist target in the United States, Indian Point nuclear power stations, and not hit it? (read more about this at 8:39 a.m.)

8:33:59 a.m.: Another transmission from American Airlines Flight 11, "Nobody move please. We are going back to the airport. Don't try to make any stupid moves."

8:36 a.m.: A NORAD spokesman, Major Mike Snyder, has been reported to have said that the FAA notified NORAD of a hijacked aircraft, American Airlines Flight 11, about 10 minutes before it impacted into the World Trade Center.

8:37 a.m.: Flight controllers ask the United Airlines Flight 175 pilots to look for the lost American Airlines Flight 11, about 10 miles to the south. They respond that they can see it. They are told to keep away from it. This incident is not included in The New York Times flight controller transcript. Why?

8:38 a.m.: Boston ATC notifies NORAD that American Airlines Flight 11 has been hijacked.

8:39 a.m. American Airlines Flight 11 flies directly over the number one terrorist target in the United States, Indian Point nuclear power stations. Indian Point has 3 nuclear power stations (1 is offline and the other 2 have been online since 1973 and 1976), which are only 24 miles north of New York City (and about 40 miles north of the WTC).

If American Airlines Flight 11 hits Indian Point correctly in any of three different ways, they could have caused a meltdown and a release of vast amounts of radiation. There are also a cumulative 65 operating years worth of highly radioactive waste stored at Indian Point. Casualties could possibly be upwards of 20 million people prematurely dieing from radiation poisoning. The whole northeast corridor from New York City to Boston would instantly become a wasteland for thousands of years.

Why did American Airlines Flight 11 jeopardize their mission by flying another 7 plus minutes (when they could and should have been intercepted by the USAF) down the Hudson River to hit the WTC between the 94th and 98th floors where they ended up "only" killing less than half of the 3,056 people that died, when they could have hit their enemies' number one target?

The mastermind behind these "terrorists" hijackers would have soon figured out their best and only shot against the strongest military foe in the world would have been to hit them first and hit them as hard as you can. Why didn't they hit Indian Point?

If the terrorists were targeting the WTC, don't you think they would have waited until around 11:00 when these buildings were full with 50,000 plus people? And of course, to cause the most deaths and destruction isn't it elementary to strike these buildings as low as possible, which would have been around the 30th floor?

So, why did this well planned "terrorist" attack kill only 3,056 people when they could have easily killed ten times that many? This reasoning also goes along with the Pentagon attack. Why was the Pentagon hit on the so-called "peaceful" west side, which was mostly under construction as opposed to the command center east side of the Pentagon?

If one plane didn't do the job at Indian Point, two planes most definitely would have done the job. United Airlines Flight 175 also flew very close to Indian Point; it was literally within a couple of minutes flying time.

If two planes didn't do the job (one should and two will), a third plane, United Airlines Flight 93 a Boeing 757-222 will lift off in 3 minutes from Newark International Airport in Newark, New Jersey, bound for San Francisco International Airport, San Francisco, California. Newark International Airport is within 10 minutes flying time of Indian Point.

So three of these airliners could have hit Indian Point within about 13 minutes of each other, between 8:39 and 8:52, if they had wanted to. The whole northeast corridor from New York City to Boston would instantly become a wasteland for thousands of years.[10]

8:40 a.m. Nasty and Duff are the code names of the two F-15 pilots from the 102nd Fighter Wing of the Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts who would scramble after United Airlines Flight 175. Nasty says that at this time, a colleague tells him that a flight out of Boston has been hijacked and to be on alert. They put on their flight gear and get ready.

8:40 a.m.: The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) notifies NORAD that American Airlines Flight 11 has been hijacked. Even NORAD officially admitted that the FAA told them about the hijacking of American Airlines Flight 11 at 8:40. As mentioned earlier, American Airlines Flight 11 lost voice contact with ATC at 8:13:31-so for 26 minutes and 29 seconds nothing has been done. American Airlines Flight 11 lost its transponder at 8:20-so for 20 minutes nothing has been done. This doesn't happen accidentally.

OK, the FAA notifies NORAD that American Airlines Flight 11 has been hijacked-what does NORAD do? Do they immediately scramble the 102nd Fighter Wing of the Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts? No they don't, they sit on this most vital information for another six minutes.

Stand Down.

8:41:32 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 175 last communication with the New York ATC: "We figured we'd wait to go to your center. We heard a suspicious transmission on our departure from BOS [Boston] sounds like someone keyed the mike and said everyone stay in your seats."

8:42 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 93 a Boeing 757-222 with a maximum capacity of 200 passengers and 11,489 gallons of fuel, lifts off from Newark International Airport in Newark, New Jersey bound for San Francisco International Airport, San Francisco, California. Take-off was scheduled for 8:01. There are supposed to be 44 victims on board, yet when you add up the official death manifest list that was published on CNN.com, there are only 33 victims.

8:42 a.m.: An air traffic controller says of United Airlines Flight 175, looks like he's heading southbound but there's no transponder no nothing and no one's talking to him.

8:43 a.m.: The FAA notifies NORAD that United Airlines Flight 175 has been hijacked. NORAD has officially admitted that the FAA told them about the hijacking of United Airlines Flight 175 at 8:43. So, now NORAD knows about two hijackings-and American Airlines Flight 11 has been barreling down on New York City since turning south at 8:26, and is just 3 minutes away from impacting the WTC. What does NORAD do with this new information? Do they immediately scramble the 102nd Fighter Wing of the Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts? Again, no they don't, they sit on this most vital information of now two hijacked airliners.

Last edited on Thu Apr 28th, 2005 03:13 am by Rokerijdude11
Polemic Argumentation
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Knight Templar wrote: Hey, Polemic... I have a crazy "Conspiracy Theory" for your consideration...
Okay.  Let's give it a quick lookie see whatcha got.

19 Arab terrorists (many on State Dept. Watch Lists) are all given visas to come to the USA.
Why is that unusual?  In the pre-9/11 mentality, there was no threat and visas were not often refused.  There was no communication between intelligence services and information was routinely lost within agencies.  IF it were a movie, everyone would have been on the same page and the terrs would have been grabbed as they tried to board, but nobody had the script for "World Changing Event" on that fateful Tuesday, except the terrorists.  

Many live on US military bases, and some even rent apartments from FBI agents.
Wow!  I've read tons of material about the attacks and do not remember ever seeing that.  (links would help)  But it is a nice touch.

They buy airline tickets for Sept. 11.. in their own names.
They were buying tickets for a one-way ride and would not have to worry about being arrested.  Why not use their own names?  They were not hiding any more.  They were going to be martyred for Allah and their families would be proud.  Better that the world should know exactly who did it.

A bunch of them are (supposedly) stopped and searched at their airports, but, not one is detained.
So?  They had nothing that was prohibited (or it wasn't found.  The detectors and x-rays came AFTER 9/11). 

No photos exist of ANY hijackers boarding any hijacked planes.
There were pictures of Atta and a bunch of others going through security published in the days following the attacks. 

Using box-cutters and PLASTIC KNIVES, they successfully hijack 4 airplanes,
The first reports said that the terrs were using knives and box cutters to cut passengers and crew to force the flight crews to open the c*ckpit doors. 
Remember that nobody was expecting that the hijackers would replace the flight crews with people who could fly well enough to hit their targets and the idea that they might fly into buildings was never considered.  The people on the plane were horrified to see their fellow passengers and the crew being carved up, bleeding and screaming for mercy.  The flight crews thought they were being humane to the victims by opening up.  Little did they know.

and spend an hour and a half flying them around the Northeast Corridor,
The planes were in the air for 31 minutes, or less, after being taken, not 90 minutes..  Maybe the ATCs should have noticed, but the system had 5000 to 10,000 planes in the air at the time of the attack and having four off on their own would not be that noticible. 

A plane is controlled by the tower when it takes off and is handed off to a regional center.  The plane flies its route and the next controller is notified that the plane is coming.  When it reaches the next control center, they take over and so on.  If there are no course change or notifications of approaching traffic, they could fly until the next hand off before they are missed. 

Once they turned their transponder off, it was supposed to trip an alarm, but it didn't work or the ATCs routinely had falses and ignored the alarm.  Once the transponder was off and they left the traffic lane, their deviation from the projected course would not be noticed since they would appear to be nothing more than a Cessna.

while the military can't seem to intercept ANY of them.
There was a time that there were planes in the air and at the ready for any contingency, but the Cold War ended and the previous administration downsized the military, including eliminating those air patrols.  

The situation, even with planes being hijacked, was not considered to be THAT critical, because there had been years of history where planes were taken and eventually the passengers and crew were released.  Nobody imagined that they would be used as weapons.   Sending military aircraft to intercept was not even that much of a priority. 

On September 11, the military was operating under rules that strictly banned supersonic speeds over the US (CONUS) anld limited them to .9 Mach = 9 miles/minute. 
The threat had to be identified.  It took a while before it was realized that the planes were taken. 
The locations of the planes had to be ascertained.  With the transponders off, there was no label on the ATC radar showing which plane it was, just a blip, along with hundreds of other blips (representing private planes). 
And the F-16s had to be directed to intercept.   They had to be scrambled and flown to altitude, taking several minutes, too.
The F-16s sent were capable of mach 3 or about 30 miles per minute, but the resulting sonic boom would have wreaked havoc on the ground, so the speed cap was never lifted.  

The F-16s to NYC were from Massachusetts and had to cover 240 miles (26.6 minutes flying time at .9 mach).  The DC F-16s had to cover 170 miles (according to one source, but another reported that there were two at Andrews AFB for that purpose).   


  • 8:15 AM: Flight 11 was commandeered.
  • 8:46 AM: 1 World Trade Center was hit by a 767 jetliner Flight 11.
    Total time to intercept - 31 minutes
    Of that time, there was a delay before the ATCs became aware that the planes were taken and then the ATCs had to determine their locations and projected destinations before they could hope to send the military after them.

  • 8:42 AM: Flight 175 was commandeered.  
  • 9:03 AM: 2 World Trade Center was hit by a 767 jetliner Flight 175.
    Total time to intercept - 21 minutes
    By the time the first plane hit the WTC, three planes had already been hijacked.  Flight 175  was only 17 minutes out.  It might have been possible to intercept it if its location were known and they could fly at top speed instead of .9 mach.  

  • 9:16 AM: Flight 77 was commandeered.
  • 9:38 AM: The Pentagon was hit in an assault involving a 757 jetliner Flight 77.
    Total time to intercept - 22 minutes (or less if they were launched out of Andrews). 
    35 minutes since second plane into WTC confirmed that there was an attack in progress.
    According to their statements, the ATCs apparently believed that this plane was a military plane (due to its speed and manoeuvres).  They were aware of a hijacked plane but seemingly didn't put the two together until it was too late.  Having the two Interceptors on scene would have helped determine the ID of the plane, but they arrived too late to assist.

  • 8:46 AM:  Flight 93 was commandeered.
    Total time to intercept - 31 minutes
    Eyewitnesses say the plane flying low, fast and inverted before it made a right turn into the ground.  There was an F-16 reported to be close, but no smoke was seen coming from plane before impact.  A version includes a passenger on the phone in the bathroom, who reported hearing an "explosion" and seeing smoke in the cabin before the crash.
    While the report of smoke suggests a possible explosion inside flt 93, it seems likely that it was not caused by hostile action by the F-16.  Flight 93 was not near any possible targets and could have been disabled, forcing it down, rather than blowing it out of the sky (which was not the case).  The engines were reported to sound like the plane was taking off and the plane was being flown, not spinning out of control. 
    This was also the plane where the passengers were discussing the hijacking with their families and said that they were going to try to retake the plane.  The smoke could have been a result of that attempt and they probably just ran out of sky before they were successful.

    Wow! What a CRAZY Conspiracy Theory!!
    Okay, let's play it your way.  WHY?  What would be gained by the conspirators?  Who would be behind it? 
     

    		•
    Knight Templar
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    		Polemic Argumentation wrote:

    19 Arab terrorists (many on State Dept. Watch Lists) are all given visas to come to the USA.
    Why is that unusual?

    The US has a history of DENYING visas to known terrorists. This may come as a surprise to you, I know.
    In the pre-9/11 mentality, there was no threat and visas were not often refused.
    Visas were "not often refused" to known terrorists?
    Wow... how do you know this??
    We DO know now that the President was warned many times about terrorists using planes as weapons. You can't use the "Dummy" Excuse anymore.

    There was no communication between intelligence services and information was routinely lost within agencies.
    Yeah... they say. This all comes from the Moussaoui case, btw. Nonsense.

    IF it were a movie, everyone would have been on the same page and the terrs would have been grabbed as they tried to board...
    Many were grabbed, but, they were let go.

    Many live on US military bases, and some even rent apartments from FBI agents.
    Wow! I've read tons of material about the attacks and do not remember ever seeing that.
    This is common knowledge. Do a Google search if you're interested. It's easy to do... really.
    I can't believe you've read "Tons" of material on this, either. You seem totally unfamiliar with the most basic 9/11 history.

    They buy airline tickets for Sept. 11.. in their own names.
    They were buying tickets for a one-way ride and would not have to worry about being arrested. Why not use their own names?
    Uhhhh.... because most of them were on FBI/CIA Watch Lists. And they WERE "afraid of being arrested" before they boarded their flights.

    A bunch of them are (supposedly) stopped and searched at their airports, but, not one is detained.
    So?
    Yeah. You're right. Many of the hijackers are stopped at the airport, but, no one bothers to see if they are wanted by law enforcement authorities. Nothing unusual about that.

    No photos exist of ANY hijackers boarding any hijacked planes.
    There were pictures of Atta and a bunch of others going through security published in the days following the attacks.
    Wrong... again. The picture of Atta was at the Portland Airport. He was not boarding a hijacked plane.

    Using box-cutters and PLASTIC KNIVES, they successfully hijack 4 airplanes,
    The first reports said that the terrs were using knives and box cutters to cut passengers and crew to force the flight crews to open the c*ckpit doors.
    The flight crews thought they were being humane to the victims by opening up. Little did they know.

    UA93 was still ON THE GROUND when they were given specific instructions NOT to open the cabin door for anyone, because hijackers were commandeering planes. Despite this knowledge, the pilot still allowed the hijackers into the c***pit area.

    and spend an hour and a half flying them around the Northeast Corridor,
    The planes were in the air for 31 minutes, or less, after being taken, not 90 minutes..

    Wrong... again.
    AA11 was hijacked at about 8:14.
    UA93 crashes shortly after 10:00.
    Do the math. That's almost 2 hours of hijacked planes flying around.
    Once the transponder was off and they left the traffic lane, their deviation from the projected course would not be noticed...
    ATCs don't notice when airliners go off course? Right.
    This reasoning is so stupid I'm not wasting my time with it.
    while the military can't seem to intercept ANY of them.
    There was a time that there were planes in the air and at the ready for any contingency, but the Cold War ended and the previous administration downsized the military, including eliminating those air patrols.
    Wrong... again.
    There WERE planes in the air--at the ready--doing bombing runs over NJ, but, they were told to land.

    The situation, even with planes being hijacked, was not considered to be THAT critical
    I can't believe you're really this stupid...

    On September 11, the military was operating under rules that strictly banned supersonic speeds over the US (CONUS) anld limited them to .9 Mach = 9 miles/minute.
    Except in cases of emergency (i.e. Hijackings)
    Wrong... again.
    The threat had to be identified. It took a while before it was realized that the planes were taken.
    AA11 was REALIZED to be hijacked at 8:14.
    Fighters didn't arrive over NYC until about 9:10.
    Do the math.

    The F-16s to NYC were from Massachusetts and had to cover 240 miles (26.6 minutes flying time at .9 mach).
    Wrong... again.
    Otis AFB is 150 miles from NYC.
    It took them 20 minutes to fly this distance.
    Do the math.
    They were travelling at 450mph... SLOWER than the passnger jets!

    but another reported that there were two at Andrews AFB for that purpose).
    Wrong... again.
    Andrews planes were unavailable that morning. One of the mysteries of 9/11.

    Last edited on Thu Apr 28th, 2005 10:29 pm by Knight Templar
    Polemic Argumentation
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    		Knight Templar wrote: Polemic Argumentation wrote:

    19 Arab terrorists (many on State Dept. Watch Lists) are all given visas to come to the USA.
    Why is that unusual?    The US has a history of DENYING visas to known terrorists. This may come as a surprise to you, I know.
    No surprise, but these guys were 'of interest' not on the list as terrorists.  (NYTimes)

    In the pre-9/11 mentality, there was no threat and visas were not often refused.Visas were "not often refused" to known terrorists?
    Wow... how do you know this??
    It was in the NYTimes.

    We DO know now that the President was warned many times about terrorists using planes as weapons. You can't use the "Dummy" Excuse anymore.
    Okay, but it was NOT common knowledge.  The info may have been circulated among the upper echelon, but the ordinary people were not in the loop.

    There was no communication between intelligence services and information was routinely lost within agencies. Yeah... they say. This all comes from the Moussaoui case, btw. Nonsense.
    No, it comes from reality.  Janrt Reno's Deputy Atty Gen'l, Jamie Gorelick, was the one who wrote the Justice Department opinion that barred CIA and FBI from exchanging information.  That is a well documented fact.  The lack of reliability within agencies was well reported in the NYTimes in the years preceding the 9/11 attacks.

    IF it were a movie, everyone would have been on the same page and the terrs would have been grabbed as they tried to board...Many were grabbed, but, they were let go.
    They were given a once over, found to be benign and boarded.  Chances they wouldn't be detained if they were alive and tried to board today, because the airlines are not allowed to stop more than two people of the same ethnicity.  The third costs them a $10,000 fine for racial profiling and harassment.

    Many live on US military bases, and some even rent apartments from FBI agents.
    Wow! I've read tons of material about the attacks and do not remember ever seeing that.
    This is common knowledge. Do a Google search if you're interested. It's easy to do... really.
    I can't believe you've read "Tons" of material on this, either. You seem totally unfamiliar with the most basic 9/11 history.
    OK.  Google did provide many references that agreed with your assertion, but why do you ignore the qualifying statement that addresses that?
    McClellan cautioned that in all three cases "there were discrepancies in the biographical data" -- mainly the birth dates -- of the individuals who attended the military schools and those believed to have seized the planes involved in the terrorist attacks.http://summeroftruth.org/mcclellan.html

    They buy airline tickets for Sept. 11.. in their own names.
    They were buying tickets for a one-way ride and would not have to worry about being arrested. Why not use their own names? Uhhhh.... because most of them were on FBI/CIA Watch Lists. And they WERE "afraid of being arrested" before they boarded their flights.
    Whoa!  You said they were on State Department watch lists, now you say "FBI/CIA Watch Lists."  It is fact that there were no combined FBI/CIA Watch Lists and that's all they were, anyhow.  They were Watch Lists that meant the subject was to be checked and the agency was to be notified of the contact.  There was no Detain for Further Investigation order in effect. 
    As you said, they used their own names, so I guess they were not that worried.

    A bunch of them are (supposedly) stopped and searched at their airports, but, not one is detained.
    So? Yeah. You're right. Many of the hijackers are stopped at the airport, but, no one bothers to see if they are wanted by law enforcement authorities. Nothing unusual about that.
    They were not hijackers at that point or terrorists.  They were passengers.

    No photos exist of ANY hijackers boarding any hijacked planes.
    There were pictures of Atta and a bunch of others going through security published in the days following the attacks.Wrong... again. (You sure are arrogant) The picture of Atta was at the Portland Airport. He was not boarding a hijacked plane.
    You're probably right, those pix were in Newsday.

    Using box-cutters and PLASTIC KNIVES, they successfully hijack 4 airplanes,
    The first reports said that the terrs were using knives and box cutters to cut passengers and crew to force the flight crews to open the c*ckpit doors.
    The flight crews thought they were being humane to the victims by opening up. Little did they know.
    UA93 was still ON THE GROUND when they were given specific instructions NOT to open the cabin door for anyone, because hijackers were commandeering planes. Despite this knowledge, the pilot still allowed the hijackers into the c***pit area.
    Can't help you there.  Maybe the door was one of those that could be opened with a hard blow.  Could be that they thought they were being kind by opening the door to stop the mutilation of the passengers. 

    and spend an hour and a half flying them around the Northeast Corridor,
    The planes were in the air for 31 minutes, or less, after being taken, not 90 minutes..
    Wrong... again. Not really.
    AA11 was hijacked at about 8:14.
    UA93 crashes shortly after 10:00.
    Do the math. That's almost 2 hours of hijacked planes flying around.
    Intercept times are not cumulative.  No plane was airborne for more than 31 minutes.  What part of that didn't you get?  The whole event lasted longer, but there was no more than 31 minutes during which each plane could have been intercepted (two were 22 minutes). 
    Once the transponder was off and they left the traffic lane, their deviation from the projected course would not be noticed...ATCs don't notice when airliners go off course? Right.
    This reasoning is so stupid I'm not wasting my time with it.
    You obviously have never been in a tower or ATC center and have no idea what goes on there.  Calm down and you might learn something.
    They would notice if the transponder is on.  Off and it is a bare blip and could be anything. 
    The ATC has dozens of blips and identifiers on the radar screen.  Planes with IDs pretty much stay in lanes, while the blips generally can go anywhere else.  The primary responsibility of the ATC is to maintain separation, but it is not necessary to watch every second.     


    while the military can't seem to intercept ANY of them.
    There was a time that there were planes in the air and at the ready for any contingency, but the Cold War ended and the previous administration downsized the military, including eliminating those air patrols.Wrong... again.
    Jeez!  You do not read!!
    There WERE planes in the air--at the ready--doing bombing runs over NJ, but, they were told to land.
    Practice runs are NOT patrols.  They are not assigned to defense operations, they are practicing bombing.  Those planes probably didn't have their guns loaded for a bombing practice and no missiles aboard.  They may even have been 'at the ready' for a bomb run, but too low on fuel to chase around the skies of the Northeast.  Maybe they could have rammed the planes or dropped a practice bomb on them. 
    The situation, even with planes being hijacked, was not considered to be THAT criticalI can't believe you're really this stupid...
    That's TWICE.  Talk about thick -
    When the day started, hijacked planes landed at airports and the hijackers did their negotiations schtick before releasing the hostages.  There was no history of flying them into buildings.  What were the military planes supposed to do?  Shoot the airliners down?  They couldn't get permission to go supersonic, so who was supposed to give that order? 
    Whether you like it, or not, there was NO standing order to have US military assets intercept hijacked civilian aircraft.  It was NOT that critical.

    On September 11, the military was operating under rules that strictly banned supersonic speeds over the US (CONUS) anld limited them to .9 Mach = 9 miles/minute.     Except in cases of emergency (i.e. Hijackings)
    Wrong... again.
    Yes, you are!  It WAS an emergency and the protocol permitted .9 mach.  No more. 
    The threat had to be identified. It took a while before it was realized that the planes were taken. AA11 was REALIZED to be hijacked at 8:14.
    Fighters didn't arrive over NYC until about 9:10.
    Do the math.
    What math?  There was no automatic procedure to have jets intercept hijacked planes (except near D.C.), no hotline to the military, no sense of urgency until 0846 hrs, when the first plane struck. 
    The F-16s to NYC were from Massachusetts and had to cover 240 miles (26.6 minutes flying time at .9 mach).Wrong... again.
    Otis AFB is 150 miles from NYC.
    Alright, we'll use your figures and still reach the same result. 
    Flight 175 arrived at 0903, 19 minutes after flight 11.
    It took them 20 minutes to fly this distance.
    At .9 mach, it would take 16.66 minutes to cover the distance, but they would have to be scrambled, launched and climb to altitude, too.  Even if they got the GO the instant the first tower was hit, they would have been spectators after the second.
    Do the math.
    They were travelling at 450mph... SLOWER than the passnger jets!
    It was 540 mph if they were running at .9 mach.
    but another reported that there were two at Andrews AFB for that purpose).Wrong... again.
    Andrews planes were unavailable that morning. One of the mysteries of 9/11.
    A greater mystery is how othrwise intelligent people can get trapped in this nonsense as you have.  But that's your problem.
    Knight Templar
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    		I got to this point and realized that you have no idea about this subject.
    You're just making this crap up as you go along, or else falling for absolutely everything you read in TIME Magazine.
    I can't BELIEVE you would say something as foolish as this:

    Polemic Argumentation wrote:
    ... there was NO standing order to have US military assets intercept hijacked civilian aircraft. It was NOT that critical.


    I'm wasting my time here, that's for sure.
    You don't even understand what US military policy is... AND you believe that having SEVERAL hijacked airliners flying around the Northeast Corridor is "not that critical."
    You're right...I am starting to figure it out...
    You're an imbecile.

    Last edited on Fri Apr 29th, 2005 08:27 am by Knight Templar
    Loki
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    		The thing that always struck me as the oddest damn thing about the whole day of Sept. 11th was the way that Flight 93 crashed.  Apparently, the largest piece of the plane ever found was a 1000 pound fan blade that was found one mile before the impact crater.  My question to the aviation experts is this:  how the hell did that end up 1 mile away from everything else?  Also, have any of you heard of anything this heavy bouncing? 

    Polemic Argumentation
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    		You know, KT, your ignorant attitude is really beginning to wear thin.  The points you are so enthralled by are not factual, yet you act as though you found THE BOOK of TRUTH and nobody else has any idea what they are talking about.  Well, guess what, dude, YOU ARE WRONG and the internet sites and tabloids you are getting this crap from are as looney as you are. 

    Knight Templar wrote:
    I got to this point and realized that you have no idea about this subject.
    That one is not versed in the ramblings of the conspiracy nuts is not a fault.   My focus has been on the facts that detail what happened, not speculation and fantasies. 

    You're just making this crap up as you go along, or else falling for absolutely everything you read in TIME Magazine.
    That's the Organ of the Left, stupid - the New York TIMES. And, no, the information is not crafted for your benefit.  It is available from the agencies involved, the legitimate publications that recorded the facts without wild speculations and conspiracies and many other sources and contacts developed during a career in government.
     
    I can't BELIEVE you would say something as foolish as this:
    Polemic Argumentation wrote:
    ... there was NO standing order to have US military assets intercept hijacked civilian aircraft. It was NOT that critical.
    That's because you are so pumped up with your conspiracy crap that you have lost touch with reality.  It was explained to you TWICE and you still have your head firmly esconsced in your rectum, repeating the same, retarded mantra.

    There's obviously no help for you, since you are afraid to do the research in legitimate sources to learn the truth instead of erupting with the self-aggrandizing bluster and BS that you revert to when you encounter a concept that you disagree with.  If you are at odds with something posted, REFUTE IT with facts and leave the name calling and invective out.     

    I'm wasting my time here, that's for sure.
    DAMM SURE!  And for the rest of us, too.  If you are not willing to consider other options and investigate other positions, all you are is a parrot for other people's ideas that you obviously don't comprehend. 
     
    You don't even understand what US military policy is...
    We are discussing WAS, not ARE.  The incident occurred three years ago and much has been changed since.  It is a simple concept - before/after, then/now, what happened in the past/what today's rules are - one that should not be THAT far above your comprehension level. 
    You cannot apply today's SOPs and rules to the events of 9/11.

    AND you believe that having SEVERAL hijacked airliners flying around the Northeast Corridor is "not that critical."
    You say that with the conviction of someone who is privy to the information that you received AFTER the attacks and are unable to grasp that it was a totally different situation than ever encountered before.  You insist upon arguing against reality, but the facts prove you DEAD WRONG - if there were a need for jets to intercept hijacked planes over the CONUS, they would have been sent, but, AT THAT TIME, there was no procedure to 'get NORAD' on any hotline with the FAA, no plan to have the military rendezvous with hijacked civilian aircraft, no order to go supersonic over land and no order to shoot down anything.

    To set your simple mind at ease, here are several phone numbers for you to call to verify the lack of an SOP to vector fighters to hijacked planes prior to 9/11/01.

    WHITE HOUSE         202-456-1414
    FEMA 202-646-3362
    FAA 202-267-3484
    FAA - Aviation Ops 202-267-3333
    FAA - FOIA - 202-366-4542
    NORAD Public Affairs - 719 554-5816

    And THIS, from the NORAD site, should dispel any thoughts that you can salvage your stand -
    "Until the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, NORAD's focus was almost exclusively fixed on threats coming toward the Canadian and American borders, not terrorism in our domestic airspace. Because of that day, NORAD's focus has increased to include domestic airspace. NORAD's mission is truly global."  (the emphasis is mine)


    If you are going to be arrogant, the least you can do is be right. 

    Rokerijdude11
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    		NORAD is a bi-national United States and Canadian organization charged with warning of attack against North America, whether by aircraft, missiles, or space vehicles, utilizing mutual support arrangements with other commands. Aerospace control includes providing surveillance and control of Canadian and United States airspace.The job of NORAD is to know every inch of the skies over North America.

    Last edited on Fri Apr 29th, 2005 05:47 pm by Rokerijdude11
    Rokerijdude11
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    		and but of course your info is from NORADS SITE it has CHANGED ITS PAGES AND ITS MISSION SINCE 9-11 somewhere i have the OLD PAGE and the ORIGINAL MISSION INTENT along with a few of the AIR FORCE websites that ALSO mysteriously changed theyre websites/missions in the weeks after 9-11 its called sweeping up keeping things under the radar

    or in the magicians world Sleight of hand

    and we all Know how easily the sheeople are swayed...put on the tele or put it in print and stamp it "official" and the sheep will buy it hook line and sinker

    i have first hand knowledge that the air force was changing sites to keep the truth away i dont care what you say about it my source is rock solid and NO i will not divulge that source

    thats how i began my whole 9-11 odessy

    before that i was a sheep just like you.........now im a shephard when will you make the change???after its too late?
    Knight Templar
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    		The US military had no intercept procedures for hijacked aircraft prior to 9/11....
    WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!!!
    As if the US had never heard of a hijacking before 9/11.
    I have no idea where you're getting this stuff.
    Check this out, dumbsh!t:

    Regarding rules governing IFR requirements, see FAA Order 7400.2E 'Procedures for Handling Airspace Matters,' Effective Date: December 7, 2000 (Includes Change 1, effective July 7, 2001), Chapter 14-1-2. Full text posted at: http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIR/air1401.html#14-1-2FAA
    -------------------------------
    <<Guide to Basic Flight Information and Air Traffic Control (ATC) Procedures,' (Includes Change 3, Effective: July 12, 2001) Chapter 5-6-4 "Interception Signals" Full text posted at: http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0506.html#5-6-4
    -------------------------------
    <<FAA Order 7110.65M 'Air Traffic Control' (Includes Change 3, Effective: July 12, 2001), Chapter 10-2-5 "Emergency Situations" Full text posted at: http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1002.html#10-2-5
    --------------------------------
    <<FAA Order 7110.65M 'Air Traffic Control' (Includes Change 3, Effective: July 12, 2001), Chapter 10-1-1 "Emergency Determinations" Full text posted at: http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1001.html#10-1-1
    --------------------------------
    <<FAA Order 7610.4J 'Special Military Operations' (Effective Date: November 3, 1998; Includes: Change 1, effective July 3, 2000; Change 2, effective July 12, 2001), Chapter 4, Section 5, "Air Defense Liaison Officers (ADLO's)" Full text posted at: http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/MIL/Ch4/mil0405.html#Section%205
    --------------------------------
    <<FAA Order 7610.4J 'Special Military Operations' (Effective Date: November 3, 1998; Includes: Change 1, effective July 3, 2000; Change 2, effective July 12, 2001), Chapter 7, Section 1-2, "Escort of Hijacked Aircraft: Requests for Service" Full text posted at: http://faa.gov/ATpubs/MIL/Ch7/mil0701.html#7-1-2
    --------------------------------
    <<'Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Instruction 3610.01A,' 1 June 2001, "Aircraft Piracy (Hijacking) and Destruction of Derelict Airborne Objects," 4. Policy (page 1) PDF available at: http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.pdf Backup at: http://emperors-clothes.com/9-11backups/3610_01a.pdf
    --------------------------------
    <<For a clear and detailed description of flight plans, fixes, and Air Traffic Control, see: 'Direct-To Requirements' by Gregory Dennis and Emina Torlak at: http://sdg.lcs.mit.edu/atc/D2Requirements.htm
    --------------------------------
    There you go, bonehead.
    Let me know when you find the part that says, "Hijackings are to be ignored," or "The military has no procedures to deal with hijackings."
    KeepOurFreedoms
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    		"An example of how the air defense network normally responds to domestic emergencies is illustrated by the well-reported 1999 case of Payne Stewart's Lear jet. When the golfer's jet failed to respond to air traffic controller communications, F-16 interceptors were quickly dispatched. According to an Air Force timeline, a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to Payne's stricken Learjet starting about 20 minutes after contact with his plane was lost."
    Knight Templar
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    		Yeah... and in the 12 months before 9/11, something like 65 wayward airliners were successfully intercepted by military jets.
    Polemic is seriously confused on this issue.
    Hard to believe, from someone who has "read tons" of material on 9/11.
    Polemic Argumentation
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    Government documents are not vague.  There is no wiggle room in what they mean.  If something has to be done in response to something else, the word used is MUST or SHALL.  Words like - IF, MAY, CAN mean that the action is at the discretion of the person in charge.  When something is Requested, it comes as response to a need that was determined, not a mandated reaction.

    Of the links you provided, the only ones that deal with hijack/escorts indicate that initiating an escort is not an SOP.




    Knight Templar wrote:

    The US military had no intercept procedures for hijacked aircraft prior to 9/11....
    If you would stop long enough to read what you are responding to, we would all be a lot better off. 
    My statement was that     "there was NO Standard Operating Procedure for the FAA or for the Military to institute an intercept of a hijacked plane in the US."  That does not mean one could not be requested, but it was NOT automatic.  Read your own links for verification of that FACT!
     
    WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!!!
    No need to be THAT hard on yourself.  Everyone is entitled to make an occasional mistake.

    As if the US had never heard of a hijacking before 9/11.
    Is English a Second Language to you?  Or are you just as stupid as a rock?  The issue is not hearing about hijacking, but about whether there was a standing order to intercept a hijacked plane with military assets and the answer was NO! 

    I have no idea where you're getting this stuff.
    Not from the masturbation sites you follow. (That has nothing to do with sexual activity.  It represents a web presence filled with the product of the site owner's efforts to jerk off the fools who believe it to have credibility).

    Check this out, dumbsh!t:
    Okay - Went there, reviewed that, found it was as full of sh1t as you are.
    --------------------------------
    There you go, bonehead.
    Let me know when you find the part that says, "Hijackings are to be ignored," or "The military has no procedures to deal with hijackings."
    There's no need for me to fill your fantasies or play your games if you don't care to deal with the information in the way it is presented and not twist it in an attempt to save face.  Read your links again, but don't bother replying. You already wasted too much time on this and after four times, I've spoon-fed you enough.
    Rokerijdude11
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    		NORAD had drills of jets as weapons

    By Steven Komarow and Tom Squitieri
    USA TODAY (BANNER HEADLINE)
    April 18/19, 2004

    WASHINGTON — In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties.

    In a third scenario, the target was the Pentagon — but that drill was not run after Defense officials said it was unrealistic, NORAD and Defense officials say.

    NORAD, in a written statement, confirmed that such hijacking exercises occurred. It said the scenarios outlined were regional drills, not regularly scheduled continent-wide exercises.

    "Numerous types of civilian and military aircraft were used as mock hijacked aircraft," the statement said. "These exercises tested track detection and identification; scramble and interception; hijack procedures; internal and external agency coordination and operational security and communications security procedures."

    A White House spokesman said Sunday that the Bush administration was not aware of the NORAD exercises. But the exercises using real aircraft show that at least one part of the government thought the possibility of such attacks, though unlikely, merited scrutiny.

    On April 8, the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks heard testimony from national security adviser Condoleezza Rice that the White House didn't anticipate hijacked planes being used as weapons.

    On April 12, a watchdog group, the Project on Government Oversight, released a copy of an e-mail written by a former NORAD official referring to the proposed exercise targeting the Pentagon. The e-mail said the simulation was not held because the Pentagon considered it "too unrealistic."

    President Bush said at a news conference Tuesday, "Nobody in our government, at least, and I don't think the prior government, could envision flying airplanes into buildings on such a massive scale."

    The exercises differed from the Sept. 11 attacks in one important respect: The planes in the simulation were coming from a foreign country.

    Until Sept. 11, NORAD was expected to defend the United States and Canada from aircraft based elsewhere. After the attacks, that responsibility broadened to include flights that originated in the two countries.

    But there were exceptions in the early drills, including one operation, planned in July 2001 and conducted later, that involved planes from airports in Utah and Washington state that were "hijacked." Those planes were escorted by U.S. and Canadian aircraft to airfields in British Columbia and Alaska.

    NORAD officials have acknowledged that "scriptwriters" for the drills included the idea of hijacked aircraft being used as weapons.

    "Threats of killing hostages or crashing were left to the scriptwriters to invoke creativity and broaden the required response," Maj. Gen. Craig McKinley, a NORAD official, told the 9/11 commission. No exercise matched the specific events of Sept. 11, NORAD said.

    "We have planned and executed numerous scenarios over the years to include aircraft originating from foreign airports penetrating our sovereign airspace," Gen. Ralph Eberhart, NORAD commander, told USA TODAY. "Regrettably, the tragic events of 9/11 were never anticipated or exercised."

    NORAD, a U.S.-Canadian command, was created in 1958 to guard against Soviet bombers.

    Until Sept. 11, 2001, NORAD conducted four major exercises a year. Most included a hijack scenario, but not all of those involved planes as weapons. Since the attacks, NORAD has conducted more than 100 exercises, all with mock hijackings.

    NORAD fighters based in Florida have intercepted two hijacked smaller aircraft since Sept. 11. Both originated in Cuba and were escorted to Key West in spring 2003, NORAD said.[/color

    Last edited on Sat Apr 30th, 2005 01:29 am by Rokerijdude11
    Rokerijdude11
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    http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/cia-simulation.htm


    John Fulton - Intelligence Networking & Analysis

    On the morning of September 11th 2001, Mr. Fulton and his team at the CIA were running a pre-planned simulation to explore the emergency response issues that would be created if a plane were to strike a building. Little did they know that the scenario would come true in a dramatic way that day. Information is the most powerful tool available in the homeland security effort. At the core of every initiative currently underway to protect our country and its citizens is the challenge of getting the right information to the right people at the right time. How can so much information from around the world be captured and processed in meaningful and timely ways? Mr. Fulton shares his insights into the intelligence community, and shares a vision of how today's information systems will be developed into even better counter-terrorism tools of tomorrow.


    About John Fulton

    John Fulton’s 25 years in the intelligence community has contributed to his recognition as an expert in risk & threat response analysis, scenario gaming, and strategic planning. He is on staff for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), currently serving as Chief of the Strategic War Gaming Division of the National Reconnaissance Office, and as a member of U.S. Joint Forces Command's Project Alpha - a prestigious "think tank" for advanced concepts related to such issues as homeland security. He formerly served as the mission director for our nation's satellite imagery program as well as replacing Army Astronaut Same Gemar as the Director of the National Security Space Master Plan for the U.S. Department of Defense and Intelligence Space Communities under the auspices of the Deputy UnderSecretary of Defense (Space).

    His counter-terrorism and homeland security responsibilities include advising the Director Central Intelligence Staff for Homeland Security, the U.S. Marshall's Office, and collaboration with the National Security Council.

    In the private sector Fulton has developed a number of patents related to positioning, "smart GPS " applications, communications, and audio/video technology. He oversees the development of public & personal safety applications of these capabilities through SafeSTAR projects, and contributes to the strategic planning and conceptual design of the SafeSTAR Homeland Security Command Center.
    Knight Templar
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    		Section 2. ESCORT PROCEDURES

    7-2-1. FACILITY NOTIFICATION

    The FAA hijack coordinator will advise the appropriate center/control tower of the identification of the military unit and location tasked to provide the hijack escort. The center/control tower shall coordinate with the designated NORAD SOCC/ROCC/military unit advising of the hijack aircraft's location, direction of flight, altitude, type aircraft and recommended flight plan to INTERCEPT the hijack aircraft. The center/control tower shall file the coordinated flight plan.

    FAA regulations Air/Ground Communications Security Order 7610.4J
    Gee... looks like they thought hijackings were at least a "little" serious, huh?
    Knight Templar
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    		The FAA is the first to detect the hijacking.
    According to THEIR REGULATIONS, they are required to call the military and provide them with information for a military intercept.
    So, the military must receive the notification of a hijacking from the FAA, as well as the data for a flight intercept, BUT, since they HAVE NO operating procedures for hijackings (they don't consider them very important,) they JUST DO NOTHING!!
    That's really something, Polemic. Does the military give the FAA the courtesy of calling them back with: "I'm sorry, but, we have no idea what to do in the case of a hijacking, so, we're just going to sit around and do nothing."
    Yeah... THAT REALLY MAKES A LOT OF SENSE!!!
    timprice
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    		For Christ's sake, waken up - the CIA did it.  American's? Your media is controlled by the new world order. Wakey, wakey.
    Knight Templar
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    		My statement was that "there was NO Standard Operating Procedure for the FAA or for the Military to institute an intercept of a hijacked plane in the US." That does not mean one could not be requested, but it was NOT automatic.
    Classic Orwellian double-speak.
    Polemic is implying that as soon as hijackings occur, nothing "automatically" happens.
    Duuhhhh....
    Of course, nothing AUTOMATICALLY happens.
    A boatload of Red Chinese lands on Cape Cod... does anything AUTOMATICALLY HAPPEN? No! Of course not!
    Local law enforcement notices the event and calls someone higher up: National Gaurd, military, etc.
    In the same way, the FAA calls NORAD/NEAD and informs them of a hijacking. Polemic wants people to believe that at this point, NORAD says, "We're sorry... but no one tald us what to "Automatically" do in case of a hijacking." THIS IS BS!! They have specific orders for what to do ONCE INFORMED OF A HIJACKING!!! Polemic, and the other Bush Apologists want people to believe that NORAD was somehow "confused" because they had no "Automatic" orders to refer to.
    Who believes this crap???
    Are people THIS stupid??
    About 50 airplanes A YEAR fly off their course, and the military is notified of this--AND THEY RESPOND!!
    KeepOurFreedoms
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    		timprice wrote: For Christ's sake, waken up - the CIA did it.  American's? Your media is controlled by the new world order. Wakey, wakey.
    Hey Timmy, Many of us Americans know that our media is controlled, so is Great Britians.......... And where do you think the New World Order is originating from?

    It was more than just the CIA involved in 911.  Keep researching.

    Many Americans are awake...................hoping the others will wake up soon.
    Rokerijdude11
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    		"The Duty of a Patriot is to Protect his Country from the Government."----thomas paine
    juancarlos
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    		buy tramadol from our site http://www.xxxxxxxxxx we offer the best prices for ordering tramadol


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    Last edited on Fri May 6th, 2005 03:51 am by

    jeffersonCarter
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    		Loki wrote: The thing that always struck me as the oddest damn thing about the whole day of Sept. 11th was the way that Flight 93 crashed.  Apparently, the largest piece of the plane ever found was a 1000 pound fan blade that was found one mile before the impact crater.  My question to the aviation experts is this:  how the hell did that end up 1 mile away from everything else?  Also, have any of you heard of anything this heavy bouncing?  If it is true that Flight 93 did not crash all in one location (one distinct site) there are several explanations that could bring about a scattering of debris.  I can think of 3 ways the plane could have exploded or broke up before crashing.  1.  Internal explosion, from a bomb or fluke accidental malfunction.  2. External strike, from a military jet interceptor or missile.  3. Extreme pilot maneuver causing structural failure of the air frame.  I haven't seen any reports on this particular crash so I have no clue.  My guess would be #3.    
    Rokerijdude11
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    		number 2 is the only logical explanation
    kenmonroe22
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    		go back to high school, roker.
    KeepOurFreedoms
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    		Wake up Kennie.
    Rokerijdude11
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    		duck
    Loki
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    		jeffersonCarter wrote: Loki wrote: The thing that always struck me as the oddest damn thing about the whole day of Sept. 11th was the way that Flight 93 crashed.  Apparently, the largest piece of the plane ever found was a 1000 pound fan blade that was found one mile before the impact crater.  My question to the aviation experts is this:  how the hell did that end up 1 mile away from everything else?  Also, have any of you heard of anything this heavy bouncing?  If it is true that Flight 93 did not crash all in one location (one distinct site) there are several explanations that could bring about a scattering of debris.  I can think of 3 ways the plane could have exploded or broke up before crashing.  1.  Internal explosion, from a bomb or fluke accidental malfunction.  2. External strike, from a military jet interceptor or missile.  3. Extreme pilot maneuver causing structural failure of the air frame.  I haven't seen any reports on this particular crash so I have no clue.  My guess would be #3.    
    Having reviewed Boeing procedures for stress testing B757-200s, I'd say the airframe stressing out would have broken the airplane's wings off long before the engines shredded.  #3 would be highly unlikely.  Keep in mind that the largest piece of the aircraft was a piece of the #2 engine and that the rest of the aircraft was blasted into bits no bigger than the palm of your hand.  If you have an item striking an aircraft long before, you would have an engine blowout much like the DC-10 blowout over Sioux Falls, Iowa that crippled the hydraulic lines of the ill-fated liner.
    Rokerijdude11
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    		[usa]
    Rokerijdude11
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    		;)
    cwa1990
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    		Knight Templar wrote: The supposed "crash" of UA93 was really remarkable, and is a chapter of the story we really don't hear much about. To this day, no one is allowed near the crash site. In fact, the government bought all the land surrounding it. When the news started leaking out that there was no debris at the site, the "rumor" started floating around that the plane had been shot down. The shootdown was a fabricated "alternative theory" to explain the lack of debris, as the subsequent explanations claimed that the airplane's "debris field" covered an area of about 8 miles. Again, a plane which simply disintegrates into nothingness. Yeah... there were some little pieces of junk which were recovered, but, no engines, tail sections, or any of that. And... it wasn't a "hole" in the ground, either. It was more like a shallow trench.
    I believe UA93 simply kept flying and landed at Cleveland Airport, as some reports stated. AA77 most likely overflew the Pentagon and landed at Reagan Airport... if it were in the area at all. Who knows.
    [usa]  [abduction]
    KeepOurFreedoms
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    		cwa1990 wrote: Knight Templar wrote: The supposed "crash" of UA93 was really remarkable, and is a chapter of the story we really don't hear much about. To this day, no one is allowed near the crash site. In fact, the government bought all the land surrounding it. When the news started leaking out that there was no debris at the site, the "rumor" started floating around that the plane had been shot down. The shootdown was a fabricated "alternative theory" to explain the lack of debris, as the subsequent explanations claimed that the airplane's "debris field" covered an area of about 8 miles. Again, a plane which simply disintegrates into nothingness. Yeah... there were some little pieces of junk which were recovered, but, no engines, tail sections, or any of that. And... it wasn't a "hole" in the ground, either. It was more like a shallow trench.
    I believe UA93 simply kept flying and landed at Cleveland Airport, as some reports stated. AA77 most likely overflew the Pentagon and landed at Reagan Airport... if it were in the area at all. Who knows.
    [usa] 
    What's your point?

    Last edited on Sat Nov 12th, 2005 01:34 am by KeepOurFreedoms
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