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Beyondthegrave Member 
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I just want to explore certain aspects of these three major religions. Due to my limited knowledge in them, correctionis are welcomed. Let's see the downside of not believing in them: Christianity: If you don't believe in Jesus, you go to hell. Islam: If you don't believe in Allah and you are not a Muslim, you go to hell. Judaism: "The whole world is to be destroyed, but Israel will be delivered out of it." http://www.contenderministries.org/prophecy/eschatology.php So I infer all nonbelievers will go to hell too. Alleged proof of these religions: Christianity: Mostly historic records, personal accounts. Islam: Same as above. Judaism: Same as above. Conclusion: Each one of them provide as much "proof" as the others, which means they are as valid as the other two. Christianity is no "truer" than Islam or Judaism. Same with the other two. No one can deny there's the slightest possibility that the others are true and their religion is false. Assuming these three religions are the only possibilities, you have 1/3 chance of being right. there's 67% chance that you are screwed! |
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Beyondthegrave Member
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No one has any comment? |
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katzap Member
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Beyondthegrave wrote: I just want to explore certain aspects of these three major religions. Due to my limited knowledge in them, correctionis are welcomed. I think there's no sense in comparing religeons - all of them are exploiting the same fear of the people to be dead or fear of unknown, or just whan a man is in a terrible situation and sees no exit from it. What we should really compare and try to understand - why musilms are much more strong in their beleifs than christians. To confert a man belonging to Christian civilization into another religeon is rather easy, but to convert a muslim - almost impossible. As for Jews - it's clear enough - who wants to stop being "the chosen one" and to be just an ordinary man - so, only very honest and brave Jews can convert. But why are Christians so weak comparatively to muslims? |
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Beyondthegrave Member
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I've seen strong believers of Christians too. Middle Easterners seem to be strong believers of Islam might be due to the fact that it's a state religion. There's only one way they are allowed to believe in. In the US, since it's a free country, people can "think it over" which resulte in some Christians converting. I can't believe I am actually defending the Christians here. Since I am only interested in the truth, I guess I feel the need to scrutinize your questoins on Christianity. |
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skeptical_R_I Member
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Beyondthegrave wrote: I just want to explore certain aspects of these three major religions. Due to my limited knowledge in them, correctionis are welcomed. I don't have time to really comment today (although I'll try to get around to it in a day or two) but you need to realize that the web site that you quote gives a "Christian" interpretation of the three religions. Its what Christians (at least on that web site) believe Jews would believe if they interpreted the Bible from a Christian point of view. It very much misrepresents Judaism, and possibly Islam also (although I wouldn't know). When Christianity came on the scene in the first few centuries they kept a lot of "Jewish", that is, Biblical, terminology - but changed the meanings of the words so much that Christianity became not a "fulfilled" Judaism, but an entirely different religion altogether, much more in sync with the paganism of their day than with Judaism. Christianity came up with new definitions of God, man, sin, salvation, messiah, Torah, etc - so when a Christian talks about what Jews believe, he usually isn't using and intending his terms in concepts that a Jew would even understand, much less give assent to. A quick example: Original Sin is the cornerstone of Christianity - its what Jesus saves one from. Its why Christianity needs a "savior" concept of the messiah! Yet the concept of original sin doesn't even exist in Judaism (as it doesn't exist in Islam) - hence Jews (like Muslims) have no need for a "salvation" in the Christian sense. To be continued... |
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Beyondthegrave Member
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I was hoping more people would reply to this, especially MB. |
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Guest
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I may do so in time. At the moment, I am preparing for school next week - and am rather scattered about... I also just wrote over 290 verses on rocks - I can explain some other time... So, I was kinda waiting to see what else would develop. I promise I will come back later... sorry! |
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Beyondthegrave Member
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It's alright. Your opinion is highly valued and it's certainly worth the wait. |
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Beyondthegrave Member
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Need to bump this up, since this is my favorite topic. Anyone else wants to share their opinion on this? |
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shadowwalker Member 
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Beyondthegrave wrote: I just want to explore certain aspects of these three major religions. Due to my limited knowledge in them, correctionis are welcomed. I would say that thinking in the manner with which you do, you are more thinly likely %100 screwed. Although, understand that the state of being ‘screwed’ has to have a desire and a want, which it seems you project. What is it that you can prove? You can prove that people believe in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Well, ok, prove is the wrong word, as you cannot prove anything, you can only disprove something. In either event, start with the belief, and work backwards, and see where they will take you. |
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Beyondthegrave Member
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shadowwalker wrote:Beyondthegrave wrote:I just want to explore certain aspects of these three major religions. Due to my limited knowledge in them, correctionis are welcomed. ![[confused]](/forums/themes/default/confused-smiley-001.gif) |
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rachamim18 Member
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You completely misunderstand all 3. No religion may be summed up in just one sentence. I will leave the Christianity and the Islam to people of those faiths [or to people that ccare to defend them]. As a Jew I will concentrate on that misocnception. Of all the 3 you mentioned, ONLY Judiaisim offers redemption to non-believers. Jews believe that as long as one believes in the so called "Noahide LAws" that they will be rewarded in the world to come. not only Israel will be saved. All that honor those 7 Laws will be saved. Judiaism believes in free will. All is pre ordained but we as humans have the ability to make choices. Both Islam and Christianity put more stock in the power of good and evil, as well as a reward system based in the world to come. We Jews believe that neither the Devil nor G-D make us do it. We make it happen. In other words: Christians and Muslims believe that the Creator gives us bread. Jews believe that G-D gave us two hands [most of us but you get the point], water, yeast, and flour. Therefore, we are able to assist him in the act of Creation. We see G-D in everything around us and in everything we do. We believe that what counts is the here and now, not a "heaven" or a "hell." We do not believe in those concepts although we do believe in the Ressurection of our solus on Judgement Day. We also beleive in the coming of the Messiah. We believe that every generation has a potential Messiah, since he will be entirely human. His revelation however depends on our collective goodness and fufillment of Scripture. Most of all, we believe in strict monotheism. You also neglect something in your "conclusion: Christianity and Islam both came directly from Judiaism. |
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sophion Member 
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The Christian Afterlife is all about singing songs to god. no more sex. no more marriage. SUCKS! The Muslim Afterlife is all about sex and wine. The previous prohibitions are uplifted. Muslim men now get 70 supermodel virgins (who are perpetually virgins). They get equally attractive young boys. And they can drink as much wine as they desire. NOW THATS HEAVEN! (but what do muslim women get in the afterlife? just a day off) Last edited on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 10:01 pm by sophion |
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eman Member
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well in our religion "Islam" we are learned that all former religions are right and true jesus(isaah),,,,,,is true and we should and must believe in him and the bible to enter paradise Moses ( musa) as well as above (taurat) and the rest of the prophets throughout history even abraham,(ebraheem) david ( dawood) etc. so Islam only came to complete the whole human religouse view and to embrace beliefs of the human being and lead it to its best. ask me how well Isalm is a religion which promises the believers in it with paradise and forgivness (let me say something about forgivness in Isalm , good deeds erase bad ones and be replaced sevral times, but one bad deed is only one bad deed doesnt erase nothing) paradise is an unkown place and time when we can't even dare to wonder about. ....... well let me say what u said about virgins is correct, and i can add that they are called like pearls in shells> but what you said about wine needs another thought. As we all know that wine , beer, alkoholics are not allowed in Islam , so how can they be the reward???!!! when in the holy Qur'an wine was mentioned it wasn't literally meant wine , but it was a simliar meaning so that the human beings can imagane how sweet paradise could be, neverthless that it was just a way to explain that there any wish could be done. In paradise as well Allah promised his honest believers that there are no bad words to be said nor bad feelings, it's the place where all this lives are worth Last edited on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 11:27 pm by eman |
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Beyondthegrave Member
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eman wrote: "well in our religion "Islam" we are learned that all former religions are right and true so Islam only came to complete the whole human religouse view and to embrace beliefs of the human being and lead it to its best." rachamim18 wrote: "In other words: Christians and Muslims believe that the Creator gives us bread. Jews believe that G-D gave us two hands [most of us but you get the point], water, yeast, and flour. Therefore, we are able to assist him in the act of Creation. We see G-D in everything around us and in everything we do. We believe that what counts is the here and now, not a 'heaven' or a 'hell.'" Both are impressive ideas. Now I like something from Judaism and something from Islam, which Chuch should I go to on Sundays? I am not Arab nor am I a Jew. |
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sophion Member
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In Christianity a devout Christian can pray once a day and still be a loser. In Islam a devout Muslim MUST pray 5 times a day and still be a loser. But overall Muslims are the greatest losers in the world, even though they pray 5 times a day. They are the poorest and most dysfunctional societies on earth. |
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rachamim18 Member
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But Eman, that is not altogether true. Islam DOES claim that it is the last Revelation to humankind, thus it fufills all fomer creeds and theologies. However, it says that Islam SUPERCEDS thse fasiths so that it renders them useless. In fact, it goes on to denigrate Jews as a people and even says that they are to be despised and reviled. Had't claims that a Jew poisoned Muhammed and killed him and the Qu'ran claims that the Jews of Mecca betrayed Muhammed and the uman so that all Jews are not worthy of trust. By explaining it in the manner of your post, you offer a misleading view of the religion. Additionaly, your explanation of the sura that refers to Paradise is not forthright. there is a minority view that claims what you posted. the majority view however is afr different. It claims that once man dies he is no longer held to the same standards and will inf act be able to enjoy that which he has righteously denied himself for the sake of Allah. In fact, look at the case of many current fundamentalists who were given dispensations by their mullahs to engage in such unIslamic practices as adultery , the consumption of alcohol and gambling just prior to their undertaking terror missions. this is a common belief in Islam. |
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Beyondthegrave Member
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sophion wrote:In Christianity a devout Christian can pray once a day and still be a loser. Are you saying Saudi Arabia, the biggest oil exporting country in the world, poor? Its leaders gave billions of dollars to the Bush family too. It owns about 7% of America, according to the film "Fahrenheit 911." |
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rachamim18 Member
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Actually, only the moinarchy and a very, very small group of favored citizens are truly well off in S. Arabia. In fact, the rest of the citizens [as opposed to the vast number of illegal immigrants and so called "guest workers"] are merely middle class [bry regional standards] and only then by being propped up hy the vast welfare system in the country. As for the vast wealth...its petroleum reserves are not limitless and they will have to pay the piper relatively soon. |
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sophion Member
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Beyondthegrave wrote: Are you saying Saudi Arabia, the biggest oil exporting country in the world, poor? Its leaders gave billions of dollars to the Bush family too. It owns about 7% of America, according to the film "Fahrenheit 911." No. Im talking about the majority. |
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Florida Member 
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katzap wrote:
Seems that you don't like Jews...if one my be brave and honest to choose another religion! How about one must be confused? Or misinformed? Mislead? Wrong? All of the above are possiilities, actually. I just get upset when I see someone put down a religion as something one would be WISE to abandon. I am a Jew, and while the term "Chosen People" is popular, it always becomes apparent that few outside of Judaism know what it means. The nation of Israel was chosen for additional responsibilities, additional obligations..NOT additional perks and privledges. Judasim, in the Torah and the Talmud, teaches that the righteous of all faiths and nations will share in the rewards. Judasim is not big on the concept of a personal heaven, so the nature of the rewards any of us will have is ambiguous. That's why Jews are charged with Tikkun Olam...healing the world...THIS world, rather than focusing on real or imaginary worlds to come. And the fact that we feel additional obligations and duties, without any special perks, is why Judasim is not a prosletyzing religion...why convert for more work when there aren't any extra rewards? Christians, who seem to believe that is is their way or H***, have a different perspective on the whole conversion thing, and seem in fact to consider themselves a whole lot more chosen (in terms of rewards and blessings) than the rest of us! Islam teaches that it is the way meant for all people, but that G-d will not overlook the righteous of any faith who believe in G-d. |
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sophion Member
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Florida wrote: Christians, who seem to believe that is is their way or H***, have a different perspective on the whole conversion thing, and seem in fact to consider themselves a whole lot more chosen (in terms of rewards and blessings) than the rest of us! The Quran said that the Muslims are the best of all people. That is about as arrogant as any self-righteous christian. Islam only recognizes the righteousness of any faith who believes in its selfish version of "God". So you can count most of Christianity out, as well as hinduism and buddhism. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Most non-Jews [and alot of assimilated Jews as well] totally misunderstand the term "Chosen People." They have some fantasy that it means a positive thing, as if Jews are some how above, or think they are above all other people. In fact it is the direct oppoistie. It means that Jews were "chosen" to perform all 613 Torah Mitzvit, or "commandments." It is a case of an incredible onus, not a pleasure or award. I have edited this to acknowledge that Florida has stated this already. Last edited on Thu Aug 18th, 2005 08:56 pm by rachamim18 |
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rachamim18 Member
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Sophion: Actually, Islam ONLY offers an elevated status among other religions to those so called "People of the Book" [i.e. Christians and Jews]. It still clearly states that these religions are incomplete revelations, i.e. inferior. |
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Florida Member
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Christians regualrly quote Jesus as saying that excepting through faith in him, no one can enter heaven. "No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)" That's pretty limiting, as it leaves out some 90% of the world! It says nothing about other righteous people of any other faith! Last edited on Fri Aug 19th, 2005 12:25 am by Florida |
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skeptical_R_I Member
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rachamim18 wrote: Most non-Jews [and alot of assimilated Jews as well] totally misunderstand the term "Chosen People." They have some fantasy that it means a positive thing, as if Jews are some how above, or think they are above all other people. In fact it is the direct oppoistie. It means that Jews were "chosen" to perform all 613 Torah Mitzvit, or "commandments." It is a case of an incredible onus, not a pleasure or award. I have edited this to acknowledge that Florida has stated this already.As a convert to Orthodox Judaism I wouldn't call observing the mitzvit an "incredible onus", but it certainly puts one in a category of additional responsibilities and observances that a non-Jew doesn't have. |
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Genghis Member
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skeptical_R_I wrote:Beyondthegrave wrote:I just want to explore certain aspects of these three major religions. Due to my limited knowledge in them, correctionis are welcomed. By and large "original sin" no longer exists in Christianity either. G |
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Genghis Member
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Beyondthegrave wrote: Are you saying Saudi Arabia, the biggest oil exporting country in the world, poor? Its leaders gave billions of dollars to the Bush family too. It owns about 7% of America, according to the film "Fahrenheit 911." Now that's a reliable source. |
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Enlil Member
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Saudi Arabia - Economy Currency : Rial (SAR) = 100 Halalas Rate of exchange (Sept.2004) : 1 Euro = 4.54 Rial (SAR) 2002 : 191 billion dollars 2002 : 9052 dollars 2003 : 190 billion dollars 2003 : 9005 dollars this gives them a world rank on gnp as number 22, only a few step over Denmark. and we are only 5 MILLION people in total, yet ranked as the 27th richest nation in the world. Think about it, thats not very impressive for a nation with 21.100.000 people. The saudis and bin ladens however are rich beyond imagination. Fahd alone was worth over 30billion dollars in liquid assets. God knows how much money those jackals are worth in total. But saudi arabia is poor on a gnp comparison. |
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rachamim18 Member
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That is EXACTLY why Christianity is inherently flawed. Islam says the same and I do not see either as a compassionate or loving faith. In fact, of the 3, only Judiaism offers all of humankind full redemption, regardless of creed [as long as they engage in the so called Noahide Laws...which is still a cause for debate]. |
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Druze Member 
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Judaism is certainly the most inclusive of the three in terms of tolerance and acceptance. Also where as Muslims try to get into Paradise and Christians to avoid hell, in Judaism the after-life is not sought. A good Jew dedicates his life to the present world. A Jew does not really pray for things to happen but more so to thank G_D for the life already given. Judaism focuses on preserving hte present earth rather then ensuring the next life. |
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rachamim18 Member
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EXACTLY! Someone DOES get it! |
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KAOSKTRL Member 
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Islam declares Mohammed is a prophet of god. It goes on to say disbelief in that is worse then murder ./ And to fight until all people stop not believing Shirk is worse than Killing Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said: [وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ] (And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said: [وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ] (And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.'' http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5008 The Order to fight until there is no more Fitnah Allah then commanded fighting the disbelievers when He said: [حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ] (...until there is no more Fitnah) meaning, Shirk. This is the opinion of Ibn `Abbas, Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ar-Rabi`, Muqatil bin Hayyan, As-Suddi and Zayd bin Aslam. Allah's statement: [وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ للَّهِ] (...and the religion (all and every kind of worship) is for Allah (Alone).) means, `So that the religion of Allah becomes dominant above all other religions.' It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari said: "The Prophet was asked, `O Allah's Messenger! A man fights out of bravery, and another fights to show off, which of them fights in the cause of Allah' The Prophet said: «مَنْ قَاتَلَ لِتَكُونَ كَلِمَةُ اللهِ هِيَ الْعُلْيا فَهُوَ فِي سَبِيلِ الله» (He who fights so that Allah's Word is superior, then he fights in Allah's cause.) In addition, it is reported in the Two Sahihs: «أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقَاتِلَ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَقُولُوا لَا إِلهَ إلَّا اللهُ، فَإِذَا قَالُوهَا عَصَمُوا مِنِّي دِمَاءَهُم وَأَمْوَالَهُمْ إلَّا بِحَقِّهَا وَحِسَابُهُمْ عَلَى الله» (I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people until they proclaim, `None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. Whoever said it, then he will save his life and property from me, except for cases of the law, and their account will be with Allah.) Allah's statement: [فَإِنِ انتَهَواْ فَلاَ عُدْوَنَ إِلاَّ عَلَى الظَّـلِمِينَ] (But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against the wrongdoers.) indicates that, `If they stop their Shirk and fighting the believers, then cease warfare against them. Whoever fights them afterwards will be committing an injustice. Verily aggression can only be started against the unjust.' This is the meaning of Mujahid's statement that only combatants should be fought. Or, the meaning of the Ayah indicates that, `If they abandon their injustice, which is Shirk in this case, then do not start aggression against them afterwards.' The aggression here means retaliating and fighting them, just as Allah said: [فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُواْ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ] (Then whoever transgresses against you, you transgress likewise against him.) (2:194) Similarly, Allah said: [وَجَزَآءُ سَيِّئَةٍ سَيِّئَةٌ مِّثْلُهَا] (The recompense for an evil is an evil like thereof.) (42:40), and: [وَإِنْ عَاقَبْتُمْ فَعَاقِبُواْ بِمِثْلِ مَا عُوقِبْتُمْ بِهِ] (And if you punish them, then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. ) (16:126) `Ikrimah and Qatadah stated, "The unjust person is he who refuses to proclaim, `There is no God worthy of worship except Allah'.'' Under Allah's statement: [وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ] (And fight them until there is no more Fitnah) Al-Bukhari recorded that Nafi` said that two men came to Ibn `Umar during the conflict of Ibn Az-Zubayr and said to him, "The people have fallen into shortcomings and you are the son of `Umar and the Prophet's Companion. Hence, what prevents you from going out'' He said, "What prevents me is that Allah has for bidden shedding the blood of my (Muslim) brother.'' They said, "Did not Allah say: [وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ] (And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah))'' He said, "We did fight until there was no more Fitnah and the religion became for Allah Alone. You want to fight until there is Fitnah and the religion becomes for other than Allah!'' `Uthman bin Salih added that a man came to Ibn `Umar and asked him, "O Abu `Abdur-Rahman! What made you perform Hajj one year and `Umrah another year and abandon Jihad in the cause of Allah, although you know how much He has encouraged performing it'' He said, "O my nephew! Islam is built on five (pillars): believing in Allah and His Messenger, the five daily prayers, fasting Ramadan, paying the Zakah and performing Hajj (pilgrimage) to the House.'' They said, "O Abu `Abdur-Rahman! Did you not hear what Allah said in His Book: [وَإِن طَآئِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُواْ فَأَصْلِحُواْ بَيْنَهُمَا فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الأُخْرَى فَقَـتِلُواْ الَّتِى تَبْغِى حَتَّى تَفِىءَ إِلَى أَمْرِ اللَّهِ] (And if two parties (or groups) among the believers fall to fighting, then make peace between them both. But if one of them outrages against the other, then fight you (all) against the one that which outrages till it complies with the command of Allah.) (49:9) and: [وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ] (And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief)) He said, "That we did during the time of Allah's Messenger when Islam was still weak and (the Muslim) man used to face trials in his religion, such as killing or torture. When Islam became stronger (and apparent), there was no more Fitnah.'' He asked, "What do you say about `Ali and `Uthman'' He said, "As for `Uthman, Allah has forgiven him. However, you hated the fact that Allah had forgiven him! As for `Ali, he is the cousin of Allah's Messenger and his son-in-law.'' He then pointed with his hand, saying, "This is where his house is located (meaning, `so close to the Prophet's house just as `Ali was so close to the Prophet himself').'' [الشَّهْرُ الْحَرَامُ بِالشَّهْرِ الْحَرَامِ وَالْحُرُمَـتُ قِصَاصٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُواْ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللَّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ] (194. The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of equality (Qisas). Then whoever transgresses against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is with Al-Muttaqin.) http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5035 |
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rachamim18 Member
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Good and informative post... First, "jihad" is interpreted as not only allowable by almost all Muslim facets but as a compulsion. To deny "juhad" is seen as shirking one's basic Islamic duty. There are a tny group of intellectuals who posit that "jihad" is an intellectual and moral struggle as opposed to actual violence but it is safe to say that anyone witrh the slightest grasp of history and Islamic lore is not taken in by that rationalisation. For one thing, botht he Qu'ran and Ha'dit were written in a time when intellectual pursuits were not held in as high esteem. Violence ruled the day. This is an undeniable fact. Addionally, Islam holds that both works are entirely "untampered" with and resolute. Unlike any other the other 2 major monotheistic religions, islam holds that interpretation is cut and dry. Since the Revelation was unabridged and uncondensed, it should not then be abridged or condensed. "Shrik." The arabic word does in fact refer to polytheism. This is the clear cut imperative to take up arms in defense of Islam and against polytheisim. "It is worse than death." Therefore, polytheisim is to dealt with by any effective means. It is worse to be an idol worshiper than to be killed, therefore killing an idol worhiper is merely saving one from a fate worse than death. The act of killing an idol worshiper is a blessing onto All-h. "I have been ordered to fight by All-h." Doesn't that say it all? "Fitn'a." That refers to inter-Islamic rivalries, but even there can still be interpreted to permit "jihad" between Shia and Sunna, or Shia and Ismaili, etc. Even within their own group[s], they are for war. |
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RASHBAMIDES Member 
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I would like to add the fact that Judaism is the only religion of the three that respects the other two. In Christianity, only those who convert into the fold are salvated. In Islam, only those who convert into the fold are salvated. But with Judaism, everybody has a fighting chance! It is only the responsibilites that differ the Jews from the Goyim (Gentiles). Goyim have the responsiblity to keep the Noachide Laws: 1) Avodah Zarah (Prohibition on Idolatory) 2) Birchat Hash-m (Prohibition on Blasphesmy and Cursing the name of G-d) 3) Shefichat Damim (Prohibition on Murder) 4) Gezel (Prohibition on Robbery and Theft) 5) Gilui Arayot (Prohibition on Immorality and Forbidden Sexual Relationships) 6) Ever Min HaChay (Prohibition on removing and eating a limb from a live animal) 7) Dinim (Requirement to establish a Justice system to uphold these prohibitions) While Jews have the extra responsibility to be a "light unto the nations", a reminder to the world of the existence of G-d. And, ladies and gentlemen, that is how the term, "chosen people" came along. It is not a title that means free caviar and the right to overlord the world. It means extra responsiblity to do Kiddush Hash-m (Santification of G-d's name). Anyone, and I mean anyone, can become a tzaddik (righteous one) simply by acheiving their respective code of conducts. And, on a final note, everybody goes to shamayim (heaven) after death. What differs is what one reaps as a reward there. From my perspective, Judaism is the best religion in terms of moral conduct. How many Holocausts, how many suicide bombers, how many Crusades, how many Inquistions has observant Judaism produced? The answer is: none. (Note: I draw the distinction between observant Judaism and the rest of Judaism because only observant Judaism considers themselves bound to the moralistic codes of the Torah (in addition to all the other commandments) whilst the rest of Judaism believes themselves not required to do what the Torah says.) |
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brontosaurus Member 
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Judaism was the first of the 3 religions. Christianity was 2nd. It came and added more books to the Jewish Bible, calling the new books the "New Testament" and the original books the "Old Testament." "Testament" means "covenant" which is like a promise or contract between man and God. The Old Testament has roughly 32 authors and was written over 1500 years. The New Testament has roughly 8 authors and was written roughly over 60 years. Islam was founded by one man who took the stories from both the Jews and Christians, changed them so all the good guys were now arabs instead of who they originally were, and then added a little bit other religions like paganism (which was the dominant religion of Arabs prior to Mohammad) and Eastern religions. It was written (or dictated) by one man over roughly 20 years. Judaism never sought converts. Christianity sought converts by teaching other nations about their religion and asking if any would like to be Christian. Islam spent the first 100 years of it's reign by conquering whole nations and killing everyone in them who would not convert. The Jewish Bible (or Old Testament) is full of God declaring how much he loves people. The New Testament is full of even more references to "love" and it actually says that "God is love." Old Testament: "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness" - Exodus 34:6 "The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." - Leviticus 19:34 "Now therefore, O our God, the great, mighty and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love" - Nehemiah 9:32 "He has remembered his love and his faithfulness to the house of Israel; all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God." - Psalm 98:3 New Testament: "And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us" - Romans 5:5 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." - Romans 5:8 "Neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 8:39 "...and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God." - Ephesians 3:19 "Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us" - Ephesians 5:1-2 "And now I will show you the most excellent way... Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails." - 1 Corinthians 12:31, 13:4-8 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you... do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back... Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." - Luke 6:27, 35 "Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble." - 1 Peter 3:8 "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." - John 13:35 Christianity has had it's fair share of bloodshed in the dark ages. It started as a religion of love and everyone who follows the Bible believes they are called to love everyone. Islam has always been a religion of bloodshed, from it's founder Mohammad who slaughtered thousands of people, took their women as his wives (he had more than 18 wives), and through every decade of Islam's existence. In fact, one of the reasons that every Muslim country is so poor (except for oil which only makes them rich because rich Christian countries rely on it) is because Muslims have constantly slaughtered eachother in tribal warfare for centuries while more civilized nations have slowly made their bumpy road to progress. Today in Africa, whole Muslim tribes kill tens of thousands of other Muslims EVERY WEEK. In Sudan, Muslims have killed 2 million Christians in the last 20 years just because they are not Muslim. People have recently been referring to Islam as "the religion of peace." The only peaceful Muslims are American Muslims because most were raised as Christians. Why are 99.9% of all terrorists Muslim? Why was the DC sniper a convert to Islam? Why did the envelopes full of anthrax say "Allah is great - death to your children"? Why do Palestinians now teach many of their children to blow themselves up in hopes of killing non-Muslim children? Summary: Judaism and Christianity are actually two parts of a whole - a monotheistic faith that emphasizes love, kindness, and decency to your fellow man. Islam is an abberant tribal religion that takes a few ideas from Judaism and Christianity and then tacks on a lot of violence. |
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brontosaurus Member
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While the Q'uran claims to be a more perfect version of the Jewish and Christian bible, it does not contain any of these verses about love. |
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Florida Member
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brontosaurus wrote:Judaism was the first of the 3 religions. Ah...where to start? This is going to take awhile, and I have to go out now, but I will answer all of the inaccuracies and gross misrepresetations later. For now. just let me say that any religion can be framed so that it looks all good, and any religion can be framed so it looks all bad. It all depends upon the willingness of the writer to select some facts and carefully ignore others. It goes by many names...propaganda, spin, slant, bias, bigotry...whatever it's called, it's a crying shame when people use it in the name of G-d.  |
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sophion Member
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Miss Florida, Before you write something up, dont ever forget that religions are not invented equal. Some are more cruel than others. Some are more ethical. Consider if a religious conflict was a result of religious abuse or a result of religious following. Compare the deeds of the founders. Last edited on Wed Aug 24th, 2005 03:34 pm by sophion |
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brontosaurus Member
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Florida wrote: Ah...where to start? This is going to take awhile, and I have to go out now, but I will answer all of the inaccuracies and gross misrepresetations later. For now. just let me say that any religion can be framed so that it looks all good, and any religion can be framed so it looks all bad. It all depends upon the willingness of the writer to select some facts and carefully ignore others. It goes by many names...propaganda, spin, slant, bias, bigotry...whatever it's called, it's a crying shame when people use it in the name of G-d. Yes, I knew someone was going to call me on that. It's true, the Bible also has passages where God appears to hate and be vengeful and his followers do a lot of killing. I didn't want to address that just yet because my post was so long as it is. In addition, I was going to post some verses from the Q'uran but I felt that was not fair because I don't know the Q'uran very well, and to just pick verses out of a hat would be misrepresenting it - that's what people do with the Bible all the time and it drives me nuts. But I do know the history of Islam, I know a good amount about the life of Mohammad, and I know quite a bit about the true nature of the Islamic world that we don't get to see in it's raw form because it is sanitized and packaged much more nicely by reporters by the time it comes over to our televisions. I have no qualms with Jews - they for the most part have wronged no one and are always on the receiveing end of abuse. Christians have done and continue to do stupid things sometimes. But Muslims in Muslim countries are cut-throat. They are so full of bloodshed, that when they are not fighting the Hindus in India or the Christians in Africa or the Jews in Israel or the West with terrorism, when they are not busy fighting the "infidels" they take time out to go on raids and slaughter fellow Muslims who are from a different sect or tribe or simply a different village. Don't get me wrong - there are peaceful Muslims. There are kind and loving Muslims. They are peppered in there amidst all the hate and violence. There are exceptions to every generalization. But the vast majority of the Islamic world still lives in a darkness that is incomprehensible to the West - you would have to live in it to understand it. Jews main goal in life is to live a good productive, generous, and full life. Christians main goal in life is to help others see what they believe is the truth of their religion by teaching and explaining about their God. Muslims main goal in life (not American Muslims but real hard-core Muslims) is to take over the world. In this, they are no different than Hitler - just maybe not as motivated, so they do a lot more screaming about it in sermons than they do acting it out. Jews believe all people who live a good life that is pleasing to God will go to heaven Christians believe that only those who have been cleansed spiritually by Jesus will go to heaven - the rest to hell - but that is God's choice who goes where and God is just and loving. Muslims believe all non-muslims will go to hell and it is the Muslim's job to send them there - they see themselves as performing the task for God of either conquering or ridding the earth of all infidels. |
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brontosaurus Member
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but what I meant to say was I look foward to seeing what you have to say and where you take issue. |
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sophion Member
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Yes all you really need to understand islam is to know its founder Mohammad. Mohammad was a sexist, a murderer, a war freak, a slaver, an oppressor of non-muslims. Such is the dark side of Islam. Yes Islam has a lot of good points. But as a bottle of CYANIDE poisons an entire well, so does these evil ethics of Mohammad poisons his invented religion Islam. |
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brontosaurus Member
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I concur. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Rashbam: YES! You have hit it squarely on the head! |
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rachamim18 Member
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Florida: Sorry to break it to you but Islamic doctrine is unabridged. There is no "Reformation" or "Haskalh." It is what it is. It is built on violence, built around violnece, and perpertrates violence...regardless of a cosmetic buffing. |
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Mr Pineapple Member 
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You cannot compare religions and say 'mine is better'. If you want to judge it based on violence then as far as i can tell Buddhism is the greatest religion in the world. Christianity is in the bottom-5 due to the violence done in its name by its followers. Stupid argument right? Of course it is. If you are a Christian the answer to a question like "why is your religion good" isn't really "because look at our list of good deeds". The real reason you believe your religion is good is "god formed our religion. It is good because it follows the word of god". This is the exact same reason that all people follow. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Pineapplae: I do not see anyone saying any one religion is better tnan another. The most recent point seems to be whether -or - not Islam is in fact violennt and to a lesser degree, the main attributes of the so called "3 major monotheistic religion." |
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sophion Member
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Mr Pineapple wrote: You cannot compare religions and say 'mine is better'. If you want to judge it based on violence then as far as i can tell Buddhism is the greatest religion in the world. Christianity is in the bottom-5 due to the violence done in its name by its followers. That is not a stupid argument. That is a truthful argument. Buddhism is the best. Islam is the worst. Christianity is somewhere on the bottom five. |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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rachamim18 wrote: Pineapplae: I do not see anyone saying any one religion is better tnan another. The most recent point seems to be whether -or - not Islam is in fact violennt and to a lesser degree, the main attributes of the so called "3 major monotheistic religion." Sorry i was responding to the references about judging a religion from the actions of its founder. (see the post by sophion above) There are a few different discussions going on at once here. I was not attacking the thread in general, i just have an aversion to generalised value judgements about one religion or another. Considering the amount of agro comments about this on the forum i think this is understandable. |
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eman Member
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sophion wrote: Yes all you really need to understand islam is to know its founder Mohammad. Mohammad was a sexist, a murderer, a war freak, a slaver, an oppressor of non-muslims. Such is the dark side of Islam. Yes Islam has a lot of good points. But as a bottle of CYANIDE poisons an entire well, so does these evil ethics of Mohammad poisons his invented religion Islam. you can shut your bloody damn mouth u freek head u sick person, i dont know how ur reply is still there ,,now isn't it build among respecting each other i kept my nerves ahold but i found that it was only me who does that so here i go to you are a sick sick person and u will realise that so soon all what happens today in the name of islam ..and i mean all the voilence has nothing to do with islam that is the message i want u all to recieve but u know what i quit this sick site cause there is no respect and if u all realise muslims here are the only person whom respect other religions ...simply cause we believe in them....we have .....to be a muslim but when it comes to other poeple they dont give a less respect how come no u all tell me who it correct i QUIT |
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rachamim18 Member
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Pineapple: you are absokutely correct in stating that generalisations are terrible, etc. Also, a founder's individual actions are almost never historically accurate but in the case of Islam, it is pretty much reliable. Still, Muhammed's actions, good or bad, really don't come into my opinion. I base it on Qu'ranic and Had'it writings as well as the subesquent actions of adherents. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Eman: Get a grip. A religion is only the sum of its adherents. However, in this case islam is overwhelmed by people who do interpret it as condoining violence. The so called Islamic "establishment" has not done anything to counter act this. In addition, Islam has always been prone towardfs violent action. In the context of its founding era and culutre, this is completely understandable. What is not understandable though is why so many modern Islams would continue to apply its original contexrt to other culutres and eras. |
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PHolmsey Member 
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I don't really think it's possible to argue wich religion is the right one or wich one is superior. As Alan Watts put it when you argue over a religion "you create a situation in wich the judge and the advocate are the same person". We've all had some exposure to religion so there is no objective third party when it comes to religion. Thats why I don't try advocate one religion over another. I'm not an objective third party, no one is. The most I do as far as advocating goes is to point out when people create images of God. |
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KAOSKTRL Member
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I dont hink you need to argue from a point of what is superior , but one should study to find out what scripture offers, OBL without question has the moral high ground in Islam compared to so called moderates who merely lie to whitewash scripture .Islam calls for genocide of all nnon muslims that is not up for debate. If you happen to agree with that dogma thats fine, but it comes with posible reprecussions |
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Guest
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Eman: don't let the door hit ya... |
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eman Member
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MB wrote: Eman: don't let the door hit ya... well with all my respect to u MB ifound my self saying all these words from the anger a person comes and says all these bad things about a prophet we all love as muslims so much..... how comw should i hold my nerves??! its not fair at all i respect jesus (esiah) and moses( musa)......etc we cant say a word against them simply cause we believe in them and one of the important points in islam is to believe in allah's former religions and prophets now isn,t that enough proof to the world that islam came to complete the message??!! and by the way MB WHAT did u mean by (don't the let the door hit you) i didn't get it  please explain Last edited on Thu Aug 25th, 2005 12:37 am by eman |
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Florida Member
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eman wrote:MB wrote:Eman: don't let the door hit ya... What she was saying was that if you don't agree with her, she would be very happy to have you leave the forum. Rather rude for someone who is supposed to love their neighbor, their enemy, the stranger in their midst, IMHO! |
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Guest
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Half right. I was saying that if you don't like the forum and want to flounce out, feel free to do so. I was perturbed by the anger expressed, although I do understand that everyone is free to express themselves. EMAN Wrote: you can shut your bloody damn mouth u freek head u sick person, i dont know how ur reply is still there ,,now isn't it build among respecting each other i kept my nerves ahold but i found that it was only me who does that so here i go to you are a sick sick person and u will realise that so soon all what happens today in the name of islam ..and i mean all the voilence has nothing to do with islam that is the message i want u all to recieve but u know what i quit this sick site cause there is no respect and if u all realise muslims here are the only person whom respect other religions ...simply cause we believe in them....we have .....to be a muslim but when it comes to other poeple they dont give a less respect Yep. I sure as Friday responded to that. S/He has posted 13 times and is already making judgments on the others, calling names etc. I don't like to see that kind of anger coming so quickly, and thought, "Dude, if we're so evil, it's a good thing not to hang out here and earn an aneurysm!" |
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brontosaurus Member
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Florida wrote: eman wrote: Florida still hasn't responded to my big huge post, but I think she's an evil super-liberal who wants to protect terrorists like Dick Durban, so maybe she won't make any useful points worth arguing... I'm waiting... |
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Florida Member
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I am often amused by trolls (defined as people who spew hatred), and seldom feed them, but I am working on the reply to your large post. I am busy with a very large ad project and a marketing campaign for a restaurant with a deadline of 3 pm tomorrow. After that, I will compose my response. BTW, your alleged terrorist Dick Durban was Catholic, last I checked. Kinda shoots your argument in it's own foot, doesn't it?  |
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rachamim18 Member
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Eman: As for Muslims "loving prophets of other relgions," they only do so because according to their dogma, thse prophets were actually Muslim! They do not value other religons and in fact, although htere have been times where they have tolerated eithr Jews or Christians, they have done so while treating them as inferiors [as in higher rates of taxation, limited occupational opportunities, and much more] even inot the present. |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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and christians have treated muslims as inferior, and hindus have treated muslims as inferior, and muslims have treated hindus as inferior and all of these continue into the present day... Generalise much? |
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rachamim18 Member
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A generalisation is where you apply narrow standards to a wide criteria. In this case, it is a known fact, like it or not, that Muslims have ALWAYS treated non-Muslims inferior. Even the least stringent caliphate, the so called Spanish Caliphate, imposed these restrictions on non-Muslims. Other religions and groups' track records are not improtant when discussing a paticular group or religion...ir does not change the point. However, let us examine your point. Christians have treated many groups brutally, but not all Christian groups have done so. ALL Muslim groups have. See the point? |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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And you think that isn't a generalisation? To get examples in history and apply them to the whole religion of over a bilion people doesn't fit the bill of generalisation? Firstly and most importantly it just isn't true... You can bring up many points of muslims treating christians poorly, I have never tried to count examples of a specific religions treatment of others so i cannot really debate you (though maybe i could google up some support). However all we need to do is look at the behaviour of muslims in the world today. What about all the muslim minorities in the world at the moment? There is no way you can say they ALL treat non-muslims as inferior. That statement is so ridiculous as to be absurd. Surely you mean something along the lines of 'muslim run states' or something like that. Even then i would disagree but tarring 1.3 Bilion people with the same brush is a gross generalisation. |
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sophion Member
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From my observations, Muslims, when they are the minority, are generally nice people who show an outward respect people of whatever religion. But when they are the Majority, God help the non-muslim minorities. |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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This is a very biased pro-muslim site i found. But it has some interesting examples of the history of a moderate Islam. As even i read it i found innacurasies and bias but i urge you to look past that and look at some of the examples. If you need verification, then get it. But i honestly think this shows some good examples of why your ideas about Islam are wrong http://muslim-canada.org/tolerance.htm |
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sophion Member
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Its a large article, my pricky fruit friend. Can you give me a hint on what to look for?  |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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Sorry lol... I was referring to some of the passages about historical examples of persecution of muslims by christians and of tolerance by muslims of others. there are a few in there. Maybe i shouldn't have been so lazy about it, but i just grabbed it now. If you go 7 paragraphs and find nothing of interest forget it  |
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KAOSKTRL Member
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I took the time to read the piece as Islam is all I do. Thanks. as you said the site is bias and the piece is shot through with innaccuracies to numerous to go into . the very foundation of the Picks argument that all come from Abrahamic religion is false from the first utternce. Moahmmed has no relationship with the lineage of abraham and the muslims claim adam abraham jesus moses noah are all muslim and Christianity judaism are bastardations of Islam. and must be eradicated. If you want to understand the Quran read it next to al sira in chronlogic order and for clarity use Tasfir ibn kathir for each verse . this is how to understand scripture read it not apologetics written 1000 years after the facts. |
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brontosaurus Member
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Florida wrote: I am often amused by trolls (defined as people who spew hatred), and seldom feed them, but I am working on the reply to your large post. I knew it. A big fat know-it-all, smug-faced liberal. Well, I find it interesting that I post 15 scriptures about love and get called someone who "spews hatred." LOL - I read over my post on Dick Durban and it does sound like I'm calling him a terrorist which is funny. I meant you probably defend terrorists the way Dick Durban defends terrorists. But I don't care if he's a Catholic. Plenty of christians make the most dangerous liberals because they don't believe even half of what's in their own Bible. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Pineapple: Again, a "generalisation" is one uses a narrow parameter on a wide demographic without any factual basis. In this case, again, there is a huge amount of factual basis for my position. If you disagree, and obviously you do, simply refure this by providing examples of the Islamic Establishment [pick your paticular variant] coming out in forceful opposition to this pattern of violence in the name of Islam. Simply provide an example of a fatwa issued within an Islamic nation AGAINST violent jihad. Countoless fatwas have recently been issued for the opposing viewpoint... What I am maintaining is in fact very "politically incorrect" but never the less, it is entirely grounded in FACT...like it or not. I would much prefer the Muslims as a group to come out against these heinous acts being perpertrated in their name. YES, a small amount have already done so IN WESTERN Non-ISLAMIC NATIONS. That is totally inconsequential. the madraasa, masjids, and Islamic Courts need to do as well. It needs to forcefully happen in Islamic Nations. If it is coming from Britian, the US, or Spain most Muslims willl disregard it totally as propaganda from the Western powers who are in their collective mind, totally against Islam. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Pineapple: I have never said that ALL Muslims treat non-Muslims as inferiors. I HAVE SAID that Islam teaches that fundamental [to it] principle and I have ALSO SAID that EVERY ISLAMIC ESTABLISHMENT has done so as well...even the afore mentioned "Spanish Caliphate" of the Middle Ages. It needs to stop. I know of more than a few Muwslim inority communities who peacefully coexist with their non-Muslim neighbors. In fact, in a couple of weeks I willl be speanding time with the Cham People of Cambodia. However, these are marginal and tiny communities. They have no power over anything. The Islamic Establishment [it is not a monolithic entity by any means but they all share this commonality] has a demonstrated pattern dating to the Islamic Advent. It needs to change. As to "moderate Muslims," they certainly exist but only mariginally. |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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^^^ Okay... that position i can understand you taking. I disagree and if i get a chance i will try to do some more research on this topic to properly. I have a number of things i think act as examples but will come back with proper proof. You can understand why i was alarmed before. I thought you basically meant that every muslim on earth treated others as inferior. That would have been an increadible statement. However as it is I strongly disagree but can respect your opinion. later. |
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brontosaurus Member
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I like rachamaim's posts - finally somebody who's sane regarding islam |
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Florida Member
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REPLY Part I Here is part of the the orginal post, with my response "Judaism was the first of the 3 religions. Christianity was 2nd. It came and added more books to the Jewish Bible, calling the new books the "New Testament" and the original books the "Old Testament." "Testament" means "covenant" which is like a promise or contract between man and God." First error... The so-called "New Testament" was not and is not an addition to the Torah, but rather a direct contradiction to it. creating a new religion based in large part on the popular teaching of the time in that region, including the concepts of vicarious human sacrifice, gods mating with humans and the dead arising from their graves. This book contains innumerable teachings in direct opposition to Judaism, including (but not limited to): A. GOD AS THREE The Christian idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert. B. MAN AS GOD Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3) C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER The Christian belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1) D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD Christian doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Catholic priests and nuns are celibate, and monasteries are often in remote, secluded locations. By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform. The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it. E) MISTRANSLATED VERSES SUPPOSED "REFERRING" TO JESUS Christian doctrine tried to use the Torah to "prove" its veracity, but instead had to rely upon mistranslations to do so, the most famous of which is in Isaiah. Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation. VIRGIN BIRTH The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, and derives from a totally different root, but Christian theologians none-the-less came centuries later and "re-translated" it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods. Hardly a continuation or addition! More to come.... |
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brontosaurus Member
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Florida wrote: REPLY Part I My goodness! I thought you were going to defend Islam as being just as valid or more valid than Christianity or Judaism! I never suspected you to take more issue with my putting the first two in a similar category. I respect your beliefs and I understand that most Jews don't accept the Christian New Testament as being a valid continuation of their Bible. I hope by my posts didn't make you think I meant that. My point is that Christianity left the Jewish Bible in tact and simply added more books to it, whereas Islam actually distorted and changed all the stories. However, if you still would like to add a Part II to your reply, I don't mind. |
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Florida Member
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brontosaurus wrote: Florida wrote: |
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Republican 14 Member 
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Florida wrote: REPLY Part I But the Hebrew word for "one" in that verse is Echad not Yachid. Echad means one as in a unity yachid means one as in solitary. ![[usa]](/forums/themes/default/usa.gif) |
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brontosaurus Member
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Florida wrote: brontosaurus wrote:Florida wrote: You don't understand what I'm saying. I understand that the New Testament in your view distorts the ideas of Judaism, but the Christians DID NOT CHANGE the OLD TESTAMENT - or what you refer to as the "Torah" which is more accurately the "Tenakh." Look at any Christian Bible and any Jewish Bible, and you will see that except for maybe a few words every few hundred pages that might be translated as slightly different synnonyms of the same word - the entire volume is identical. This is very different than the Q'uran, which actually takes the story of Abraham and Isaac and says "no, Abraham didn't almost sacrifice Isaac, he almost sacrificed Ishmael" - which conveniently changes the central character of the story from one of the Jewish Patriarchs to the father of the Arabs. How could you trust a book that would deliberately distort stories like that and then claim it is the Word of God. Your knowledge of the Nicean Council or the Council of Trent show you have no idea what they were about so you can't use them as anything. They had nothing to do with translation, but rather with deciding which writings of the apostles were to be included in the New Testament and which not. And stop bringing up these rediculous notions of "word of hate" when my original post listed 15 scriptures from your Tenakh and my New Testament that show God as the God of love and his command to love all people. If anything, I think you're fueled more by ideas in your own head than anything I've specifically written. Do you close your eyes when you read my post and try to get the words by ESP? |
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brontosaurus Member
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The Jewish Torah starts with "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy." The Christian Bible starts with "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy." The Q'uran starts with "The Opening, The Cow, The Family of Imran, The Woman..." For both the Jewish and Christian Bibles, the first 39 books are the same. Depending on the size of the Bible, this roughly 800 pages of identical text. Not ONE VERSE in the entire Q'uran is identical to a verse in either the Jewish or Christian Bible. |
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Republican 14 Member
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brontosaurus wrote: The Jewish Torah starts with "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy." Not entirely true the Catholic Bibles add Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, 1&2 Maccabees, and extra chapters to Daniel and Esther. Eastern Orthodox Bibles also add others IN ADDITION TO THE CATHOLIC BIBLES!  Last edited on Mon Aug 29th, 2005 07:37 am by Republican 14 |
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brontosaurus Member
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Republican 14 wrote: brontosaurus wrote: The Jewish Torah starts with "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy."
granted. I'm not Catholic, but even if I was, they STILL don't change the Jewish texts. |
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Republican 14 Member
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brontosaurus wrote: Republican 14 wrote:brontosaurus wrote:The Jewish Torah starts with "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy." That's true but I still wish they didn't add those. Also I forgot but they add Baruch (I think it include the Epistle of Jeremiah but I'm not entirely sure.) Last edited on Mon Aug 29th, 2005 07:43 am by Republican 14 |
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rachamim18 Member
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Florida: Very good and correct post. Many people make that mistaken assumption about the New Testament. In compariosn, the Old Testament is considered to be the verbatim of expression of the Creator and encompasses Jewish history and religous doctrine. The New Testament however is a collection of letters and a tad bit of uncredited revelation written byt the early followers of the Apostlkes [or the Apostles if you belive the majority of Christains]. |
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sophion Member
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Florida was actually arguing against popular INTERPRETATIONS of the new testament. She did not actually provide one instance wherein the New Testament contradicted an existing Old Testament story. The Quran actually contradicted several stories of the bible. The most significant contradiction/corruption is the assertion that Jesus was never crucified. Completely reverses the New Testament Gospel stories about Jesus. Last edited on Mon Aug 29th, 2005 05:29 pm by sophion |
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rachamim18 Member
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Sophion: My favorite Islamic change was the Hadi't story about Muhammed on his flying horse after he died. He flies to Jerusalem which of course he never came close to in life and lands on the Temple Mount. From there he asceneds into Paradise where he sees all the Prophets sitting at the feet of Allah. Jesus is supposedly red haired and freckled. I have often wondered what possesed the scribes to add that effectation? The story typifies Islam's attempt to usurp Judisaim and Christianity as the region's preeminent religions. |
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brontosaurus Member
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another interesting thing to note is this: at least in America today the most conservative Christians hold Judaism in very high regard. The most conservative Jews (or orthodox) for the most part have a deep respect for Christians. The two don't always agree but each sees the other as a positive influence on America's culture. The most conservative Muslims find Jews and Christians not only a threat but worthy of death. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Brontosauras: "Most Jews and Christians in America hold each other in high regard and voew each other as positive influences on America." Partly correct. Both fot hem are doing so for almost entirely selfish reasons. Christians, evangelicals anyway, see the Jews reestablishment of Israel as a neccessary part of the Second Coming of Christ. In other words, they still se Jews as theologically inferior but intrinsically connected to their own religious hopes. The Jews on the other hand see the evangelical's support of Israel as a good thing because of its obvious effect on US/Israeli relations. |
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hairy Member
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Right on |
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Guest
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I may be a dunce, or in a vast minority. BUT... I see (or try to see) people as people first, and whatever group they belong in as secondary - if at all. When I had Palestinian friends who told me about losing their homes when the Israelis took over, it broke my heart. When I heard of Sikhs being killed for their faith, I was appalled. When I learned of entire castes of people in India who are considered "unclean" or "untouchables" for no other reason than that is what their parents were, I am stunned. When I hear of the JW down the street who is shunned in kindergarten because he doesn't celebrate birthdays, I am saddened. All injustice is unjust.* It does not matter who it is effecting. I believe it is all wrong. If God wants to punish someone, God is certainly quite capable of doing it. *I am not talking about justice which is meted out through court systems. I am talking more about individual cases when people take "justice" into their own hands! |
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Florida Member
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MB wrote: I may be a dunce, or in a vast minority. BUT... I see (or try to see) people as people first, and whatever group they belong in as secondary - if at all. When I had Palestinian friends who told me about losing their homes when the Israelis took over, it broke my heart. When I heard of Sikhs being killed for their faith, I was appalled. When I learned of entire castes of people in India who are considered "unclean" or "untouchables" for no other reason than that is what their parents were, I am stunned. When I hear of the JW down the street who is shunned in kindergarten because he doesn't celebrate birthdays, I am saddened. All injustice is unjust.* It does not matter who it is effecting. I believe it is all wrong. If God wants to punish someone, God is certainly quite capable of doing it. |
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Guest
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Florida - excellent quote!! |
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rachamim18 Member
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MB: I do not think that you are a dunce at all for feeling that way...just extremely naive. You see, while such feelings are great, they are not at all realistic. There are correct things, and incorrect things. If somebody invades your home and steals your land, you cannot sit back and accept it as natural. However, in the Mid-East communal violence, it then becomes neccessary to find the root of the situation. The truth of the matter is, that it was never Arab land. There has never been an Arab nation there, or Arab govt. The Arabs now have 23 other nations, plus over 20 more non-Arab Muslim nations that are alligned with them. The Jews ARE the only existing people to have ever had a nation there, as well as being the longest continuous inhabitants of the land...with over 3500 years and counting. Of course they only have one nation and it takes 1% of the total landmass in the region [thanks Looshawn for that figure, it is correct]. You see, these things need to be considered... |
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Guest
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Of COURSE, they need to be considered. Please note that I was mostly speaking of vengeance on a personal level - and judgments of people on these basis. I do not hate all of one particular group because some of them trampled on the rights of others or whatever. That's ridiculous. |
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rachamim18 Member
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MB: YOu are ABSOLUTELY correct. In the Mid-East, there is amuch different cultural context but I do feel the same way. |
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Florida Member
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I am still trying to find the source for that quote, but no luck so far. THis is not the quote, biut one that says much the same thing: "It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right." Henry David Thoreau And as for the intense hatred I keep hearing against all Muslims on here (except for you, MB, and a couple of others), this seems to be on the mark... A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular. Adlai Ewing Stevenson Is it really safe to be a practicing Musllim in the USA today? Given the words I've heard on here, and the things I've seen and heard my Muslim friends go through, I would say not! So are we a free society? Finally, this quote.... God made so many different kinds of people. Why would he allow only one way to serve him? ~Martin Buber Gotta get back to work now. |
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Florida Member
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Just one more...this one will (should?) make you think about just how much all people have in common and just what we focus upon instead! "I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said 'Stop! don't do it!' 'Why shouldn't I?' he said. I said, 'Well, there's so much to live for!' He said, 'Like what?' I said, 'Well...are you religious or atheist?' He said, 'Religious.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?' He said, 'Christian.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?' He said, 'Protestant.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?' He said, 'Baptist!' I said, 'Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?' He said, 'Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you original Baptist church of god, or are you reformed Baptist church of god?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!' I said, 'Die, heretic scum,' and pushed him off." ~Emo Phillips |
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sophion Member
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Florida wrote: Is it really safe to be a practicing Musllim in the USA today? Given the words I've heard on here, and the things I've seen and heard my Muslim friends go through, I would say not! So are we a free society? There are about 3-6 million muslims in america today. How many were physically harmed or verbally (criminally) abused since 9/11? Not enough to make news or raise protests. So I suppose it is really safe to be a practicing muslim in the USA. However, to be a practicing Jihadi Muslim (one who practices the violent message of Islam), I dont think one would be safe from the law itself. Florida, you are sooooo pessimistic. I feel sorry for you. |
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Florida Member
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sophion wrote: Florida wrote:Is it really safe to be a practicing Musllim in the USA today? Given the words I've heard on here, and the things I've seen and heard my Muslim friends go through, I would say not! So are we a free society? |
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beaton1 Member 
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no true christian believes that the devil or God made us do anything. satan tempts us and God gives instruction, and we choose what we do with it. |
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sophion Member
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Florida, that was 4 years ago. Right after 9/11! Of course people would be edgy. Americans had been slaughtered in the name of Islam! Of course your Homeland Security would be busy looking for practicing Jihadi Muslims. Can you blame people for seeing Islam as a threat? Just look at the news, practicing Jihadi Muslims have struck again and this time in Thailand. Last night I read the history of the Ottoman empire and how it slaughtered its way from Persia to Greece. How the turks massacred 800,000 armenians right before world war I. What do you call that? Its so easy for you to cry “BIGOTRY” and not blame the part of the muslims who instigate the conflicts. Education and awareness? Do you not know that those muslims who carried out 9/11 were wealthy and highly educated? Last edited on Thu Sep 1st, 2005 03:30 pm by sophion |
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Guest
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I may simply be ignorant, but I am troubled by the celebration from Islamic extremists who rejoice in the destruction of lives in the south her ein the US. There are those who honor the storm and claim her as a soldier in Jihaad. |
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SonOfThunder Member 
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MB wrote:I may simply be ignorant, but I am troubled by the celebration from Islamic extremists who rejoice in the destruction of lives in the south her ein the US. There are those who honor the storm and claim her as a soldier in Jihaad. NO, you aren't ignorant! This is islam at its finest! A religion whos followers think its wonderful when innocent people die by the thousands! Children included! |
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sophion Member
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SonOfThunder wrote: NO, you aren't ignorant! This is islam at its finest! A religion whos followers think its wonderful when innocent people die by the thousands! Children included! This sounds like bigotry. But how can I blame Mister Thunder when I know for a fact that 1. It is the Islamic duty to imitate their found Mohammad. 2. Mohammad slaughtered all the able bodied men of an entire Jewish tribe. And enslaved all surviving women and children. My God. This is the religion we have to live with. Can there be world peace while Islam is being practiced at its fullest? My God. My dear God. Save us from Islam. |
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sophion Member
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Among the turks, even today, being a Ghazi is one of the most honorable title. What is a Ghazi? It is a warrior who raids Christians for the benefit of Islam. My God. |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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^ sorry would that be the Islamic equivalent of a 'crusader'? |
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sophion Member
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Mr Pineapple wrote: ^ sorry would that be the Islamic equivalent of a 'crusader'? Mr Pineapple, you got it the other way around. 'Crusader' is the Christian equivalent of a 'Ghazi'. It is the turkish Islamic raids that triggered the Crusades. 'Holy War' is an Islamic invention. |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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Just pointing out that christians have their own dirty past just as much as islam. Whatever your views on history you must admit that christianity has gone through some really horrific periods where it was being mis-used for all sorts of slaughter and oppression. Unfortunately there is a sort of fundamentalist movement in Islam at the moment. However that is not to say that Islam is the problem at all. I think it is far too much of a simplification, and that the real problem is these fanatical, fundamenalist muslim groups. By the same token christianity has some of these, they just have a lot less. Why generalise about the whole religion? The real problem is clear, and it is not general Islam. btw if I am wrong about above then we are all in trouble. Imagine if Islam was the real problem and there are 1.3 bilion of them (and they are the fastest growing major faith). The truth is that most muslims are fine people. |
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Guest
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Dirty past on both sides - dirty present is a different. |
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sophion Member
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Everyone had a dirty past. But let us look a little bit closer. Christianity’s dirty past, as well as Hinduism’s and Buddhism’s are MOSTLY internal, and mostly POLITICAL. Islam’s dirty past is mostly about CONQUESTS. The essence of JIHAD. Conflict is an undeniable department of Islam. Coded in their Holy Book and exemplified by their Prophet. Islam will always be a problem. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Beaton: Sorry, the majority odoes not evidently agree with you. florida: I think it is important to approach the issue ratioanlly. Sadly, most do not. I think that there are beautifal Muslim people but the Islamic Scriptures are what they are. Still, people can interpret them as they wish. I liked the analogy. |
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Florida Member
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sophion wrote: Florida, that was 4 years ago. Right after 9/11! Of course people would be edgy. Americans had been slaughtered in the name of Islam! Of course your Homeland Security would be busy looking for practicing Jihadi Muslims. |
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Florida Member
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SonOfThunder wrote: MB wrote: |
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beaton1 Member
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just because people say that the tsunami is for this or that doesnt mean that htey knw. I don't know perhaps it is part of the DEATH that SIN brought into the world. I don't know why these things happen. only God knows. ASK HIM. |
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sophion Member
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Miss Florida, Emails are empty threats. About Homeland Security, maybe those muslim you know are overreacting. What the hell do they have to fear from Homeland Security if they have nothing to hide. Or maybe you are just unlucky enough to be friends with muslims who do have something to hide. From having ties with illegal immigrants to having ties with extremists. And I don’t think Christians would raise hell. Remember these are not the type of people who goes into violent fits of protests if someone flushes a bible down the toilet. Modern Christians are much more enduring and forgiving people. See, the turks have murdered close to a million of their Armenian brethrens. Did they raise hell for that? The Indonesians have murdered hundreds of their East Timorese brethren. Did they raise hell for that? Even after 9/11 there were only a handful of violent backlashes against muslims. No mosque bombings like what muslims do to churches in Pakistan. About WWII, Japanese Christian Americans were also rounded up. It had nothing to do with religion. |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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Does everyone here who has criticised the muslim culture really believe that the current crisis was caused by Islam? I never thought this. In my view fundamentalist Islam just became the vehicle by which these people expressed what is basically a political argument. To say that the current attacks are because of Islam is the same as saying the Irish attacks were because of Christianity, or that communist terrorists over the last half century were caused by communism. Why is it that we don't think this is the case for all these other examples but somehow the current attacks are completely caused by Islam? The Inquisition, for example, and the purges of Jewish people from europe. Does anyone here think that was because of christianity? That there is something in christianity that made this happen? Again why do double standards apply when it comes to Islam? The example above with aids victims is a perfect example. The idea that people could blame aids on the victims is so horrific that people could look at it be absolutely horrified. By the same token people were horrified by those cheering 9/11. The truth is that neither were motivated by religion and both by hatred. The AIDS people, i think, would justify their beliefs on religious grounds, but basically it is their hatred, and intolerance that causes their belief. They already hated before they even thought about AIDS. By the same token those cheering 9/11 would justify themselves on religious grounds but in reality are motivated by hatred of the U.S. This hatred pre-dates 9/11 by a long time and has been growing for a long time. How can you treat one as a personal hatred and bigotry problem while blame the other on a faith? The truth is that this is a political problem. Islam is just the sort of rallying cry of the ignorant and dissafected. Pity the poor muslims who have a more tolerant and loving faith in Islam and have to suffer these fools. |
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sophion Member
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Mr. Pineapple, Islam is PARTLY to blame for the current crisis. Islam is a Militaristic, Expansionist, Fundamentalist and Political religion that naturally suppresses creativity and liberty. It is supposedly an entire way of life, where economy according to scripture is more dependent on plunder than anything else. As a result the muslim culture always struggle in its economy when there is no conquest. It is strictly against interest-lending which is why its banking systems are inefficient. The Inquisition and anti-semitism was partly to blame on Christianity. But Christianity continuously undergo reformations so that had ceased being an issue for centuries and decades now. About the aids victims, what is the proportion of extremist Christianity when compared to the whole? Very very very rare. And for this Christianity is already being bashed everywhere. The cheerers of 9/11, what sparked their hatred? Wasn’t it their religious identity? That they see the US as the enemy of the muslim world for its support of the jews which is at war with their Palestinian brethren. An us against them ideology thanks to religion. You admit that this is a political problem but do not realize the truth that Islam is a political religion. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Florida: Germans WERE rounded up during WWII, just not the large degree that Japanese were. It was not based on religious commanility or difference but on physical appearance. Germans look like streotypical Americans, Japanese do not [although some Japanese have certainly been here longer than some Germans. |
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ConvertedJew Member
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I will say this here in this thread again: One thing that I continually find with all people is pointing out the differences in religions and creating these vast voids of hatred between one another... Through this negativity, we have created "holy wars" and perpetuated violence and murder. Nothing positive ever comes from this spiralling effect. Why can we not highlight everything we have in common and triumph and celebrate that? These are creation stories of Islamic, Jewish and Christian faith. They are the same stories, with the same characters. The first 5 books of the Bible and Qu'aran are the same (yes different language translations but no different in our own Biblical translations from Hebrew to the King James and NIV texts.) Why can we not embrace how we come from the same seed, worship the same God, and work together to create peace instead of this jihad against eachother? We need to all return to our fundamentals. We need to really look at what people like Jesus taught, no matter what we believe in the idea of the messiah. We all agree he was a wonderful prophet, teacher, and man. He told us to love one another. Isn't that what is important here? To stop the fighting, bickering, hatred, and fear that now plagues our daily lives? I can not tell you how hurtful it is sometimes to be persecuted because my fiancee is Islamic, I am a once-Catholic-now-Jewish who studies Christianity and Religion. I have had crosses burned in my yard, hateful things thrown at me leaving school, cat calls, hate mail, and much more. Does it change anything? No. Does it solve anything? No. Does it make things worse? Yes. I understand in this world we are all looking to learn about eachother and are all on a quest to find our spirituality, and this site, I am sure was originally created to do such a thing. Unfortunately it has now turned into a mad house. It is about who's religion is better than the other, mocking eachother, and tearing down the bridges we have worked so hard to build by creating deeper rifts between people of FAITH. We need to come together as a body of people of FAITH and reachout to help one another instead of killing eachother. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Pineapple: there are alot of factors that have causes the current geopolitical situation. however, the failure of the Islamic establishment, coupled with most Muslims unwillingness to question what they are told is most responsible for the current climate. Funny, yesterday I had cause to travel to Paterson N.J.. The city is largely Arab and almost all of them are Muslim. I bought the local paper and lo and behold...It contained a writeup on the problems with Islam today. The article was not dealing with jihadi but with domestic violence. In that violence is indeed the root of the current problem, I thought it amazing when i read the following [I hate cut and paste but please bear with me]: "Some Muslim men feel it is their right to hit a wife that misbehaves, citing a much - debated passage in the Quaran [sic], said Mahmoud Ayoub, Professor of Islamic Studies and Comparitive Religion at Temple University [Philadelphia, pennsylvania]. Chapter 4, Verse 34 of the Quaran [sic] addresses conflict in the family caused by a woman. The passage outlines a method of handeling the disagreement. First comes consultation between husband and wife . If that doesn't work, the passage states, he can strike her, Ayoub said." It goes on to offer rebuttal, if you can actually call that a rebuttal, when a Muslim professor at Rosemount College offers that the word in Arabic actually means "hit, but not in a harsh way." Funny though, as a native Arabic speaker [my first language] I translate it simply as "beat." It concludes with another comment by Ayoub where he says," the Quaran [sic] is a patriarchal document. It gives men more or less full authority...Butit always says that the best relationship between men and women is one that has mercy and love." You see, that is the EXACT problem! Well, you see, the perfect thing is to have a loving relationship BUT if that is not as you see it, talk to her. If talking does not satisfy you, beat the shi* out of her. Excuse the expletive please but that is how wound up it gets me. The violence in the religion is institutionalised and is not being confronted. Judisiam developed in the same cultural parameters, as well as geographical concerns. It too has agreat deal of violence in its makeup but has risen well above it. In fact, by the time of the First Exile, the high court [Sanhedrin] was so reluctant to permit capital punishment that they added so many strictures as to make it virtually impossible to carry out. Religions need to evolve in order to meet their adherents changing needs as well as to remain relevant within the current timeframe. Islam is failing...miserably. |
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rachamim18 Member
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ConvertedJew: You are entirely wrong. The Qu'ran and the Old Testament are very, very different. the Qu'ran took great liberties in paraphrasing the Old Testament. So much so in fact that there are huge incosistincies. While the king Jame's Bible is a huge mistranslation of both Old AND New Testaments, it is still a telling of the same essential tale. The same CANNOT be said fo the Qu'ran. |
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rachamim18 Member
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ConvertedJew: I do not want to disparage another's fundamental beliefs but I DO have to tell it like it is. In that regard, Jesus NEVER said ANYTHING original. All his sayings are merely paraphraseing of other Jewish Scripture. the parables are original in their telling, but again, their content is mere recycling. |
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rachamim18 Member
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ConvertedJew: The things that have happened to you and your Muslim fiancee are not to be excused...EVER. However, neither is the institutional ignorance of Islam which is causing a whole lot more viokence than cross burnings in one's yard. |
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ConvertedJew Member
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rachamim18 wrote: ConvertedJew: The things that have happened to you and your Muslim fiancee are not to be excused...EVER. However, neither is the institutional ignorance of Islam which is causing a whole lot more viokence than cross burnings in one's yard. Okay, look Rachamim18: I know you are trying to tell me things, but I do have a Masters Degree in Religious Studies, and I am working on my PhD in Religious Studies as we speak. Yes, there are differences in everything, but the base stories are all the same adapted to fit each culture. As a Religious Scholar with a Bachelors Degree in anthropology, I have done quite a bit of research in my time. In almost every culture, there are adapted stories to make them more personal for that culture. Every culture in the world has a Noatic Story of the flood and rescuing animals on a boat with the salvation of only one family to reinhabit the world. Does this mean that the Chinese Story is ineveitably wrong and the Christian story is the only true story? No. There is anthropological evidence in many countries that the global flood did happen and most likely God chose multiple families throughout the world to build ships, and save some of the animals and start the world all over again. We could not expect Noah to do this on his own! Babylon has a very similar story that dates further back than the original Noatic story, so maybe Noah isn't original either but adapted from other folklore. I understand that you believe Christ said nothing original, and that may be, but does his teachings make anything anyless right? Should we still not live by his teachings and love one another? Should we instead turn our backs on peace and tear eachother to shreds with nashing of teeth? I am Jewish, I believe in his teachings yes, my jury is still out on the messiah deal, but my research helps me every day to grow closer to God and find my true spirituality. But I do encourage you to really look closer at the mutliple Abrahamic religions and texts, and find where they are similar, understanding cultural differences and how we all adapt stories and beliefs to fit our cultures, and to realize how realistically similar all of us are in basic foundational belief in God. |
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Florida Member
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ConvertedJew wrote: I will say this here in this thread again: |
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Florida Member
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Some confusion here...I am the one with the Muslim fiance, not ConvertedJew (I am not a convert, not that it matters one whit whether I was! I don't subscribe to the "Your not a real Jew unless you were born that way" argument. Too ridiculous to even discuss! ) ConvertedJew, Rachamin18 is not a Christian, but rather a former Hasid, now non- practicing. (Did I get that right?) And ConvertedJew, you are still right! It is all cultural adaptation of the same basic stories and themes. One G-d, many paths...that's what I keep trying to say, but people would rather blame and hate.  |
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sophion Member
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Problems are not solved by ignoring the differences. Like it or not religions are not invented equal. Most of us here did not criticize Islam when 9/11 happened. No, entire societies can be reformed through pressure. We need to expose the evils of Islam. |
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sophion Member
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Florida wrote: It is all cultural adaptation of the same basic stories and themes. One G-d, many paths...that's what I keep trying to say, but people would rather blame and hate. What produces blame and hate are exclusivist ideas that Islam is the only path, same with christianity. What produces blame and hate are the islamic teachings that jews are enemies and decended from apes and pigs. You cannot solve any problem by ignoring these facts. |
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rachamim18 Member
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ConvertedJew: I do not want to enter into a pissing contest with you. The fact is, you claimed something that is incorrect. You do not say, in you roriginal post, that all relgions have commonalities so Islam is no different than Judiasim or Christianity. You DID say that the Qu'ran is the same as the Old Testament, in the way that the King James' edition of the Bible is the same as the traditonal version. I pointed out why your analogy is incorrect. Sorry if that somehow offends you but it is still an irrefutable fact...that you should be well aware of considering your level of familiarity as a person pursuing an advanced religious degree. As for your contention that although Christ's teachings may not be original at all, but that this would not negate the essence of his teachings...You are certainly correct. However, in then saying that people should then live by Jesus' teachings, you confuse the issue. If the message is indeed independant of the man, then there is no reason whatsoever to pattern one's life or actions after him. I would prefer to live my life following the teachings that Christ himself learned, as a traditional Jewish man. any 13 year old Jewish man [we are men at 13 as you must know] knows at least what Jesus is purported to have taught. That is, not Christ's teachings or message, but the Creator's message and teachings. While you [and others] might see it as unneccessary distinction, it is important to many none the less. As for the commonality of the flood story...I am well aware of it. In fact, the Baylonian version you referred to is known as "The Tale of Gilgamesh." I find it interesting reading. As for me,reading the "Abrhamaic" texts, i will go you one better. I have spent years studying ALL religions [albeit not to the Doctorate level, but then most Jews could make a joke of a PhD in religion any day of the week]...not just the so called "Monotheistic 3." Florida: Yes, you got it right. Sorry about the Muslim fiance confusion. Sophion: You are correct that there are problems that need to be confronted in Islam. |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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sophion wrote: Problems are not solved by ignoring the differences. Your earlier point of Islam being political is well made. However you must admit that a major part of this problem is political. Colonialism resentment, western culture resentment (not talking christianity here but stuff like macdonalds), Oil, general envy of the western worlds wealth, the support by the U.S. of anti-Islam leaders who steal from their country, and simply because the U.S. is the biggest bad guy around and is easy to point to and blame. All these play a major role. Your comments about religions ignore the problems you have admitted in other faiths. As you have said most have gotten over the earlier problems they had with fanaticism and violent bigotry. Islam, for any number of reasons is having a huge recurrence. To say that the problem is Islam is to simply ignore what you have just said. Other religious cultures have adapted a more tolerant view. In fact many, many muslims have adopted a tolerant view. However the problem is indeed the ones that havent. In the end i would be happy if you would simply change your statement to "the problem is fundamentalist/radical/fanatical Islam". To speak of Islam as a whole is to ignore your own post on christian and jewish history. Further to your last scentence. i don't know what this means. If you think people should be convinced not to believe in Islam at all i think you are absolutely wrong and have no hope whatsoever. You may as well say change the view of christians to believe in Hindusim. If it is saying change the character of modern Islam i completely agree. There are good examples within their own communities to compete with the fanatics. |
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ConvertedJew Member
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Just to clarify, my fiancee is also Muslim. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Now I AM really confused! |
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rachamim18 Member
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Pineapple: while the factors listed are certainly relevant...They all fall back onto the framework of Institutional Islam. If the foundation is rotten, the house will not be true. Pretty simple I think. Take away all those negatives and you are still left with the rotten framework. |
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Florida Member
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ConvertedJew wrote:Just to clarify, my fiancee is also Muslim. Just out of curiousity, a few questions...feel free to ignore if you choose. You said your fiancee is Muslim...since you used the "ee" ending, I assume you are a man? If so, I would imagine you have managed to avoid many of the dire warnings I have received from well-meaning people who are convinced that I am signing on for a life of brutality. Or have there been other warnings for marrying a Muslim woman? How has you Temple dealt with it? (Mine has been great, BTW...VERY welcoming, and accepting) Also, are you a convert to or from Judasim? Just curious. And as I said, it doesn't matter how one get on their path...birth or cnversion...the result is the same. Last edited on Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 11:44 pm by Florida |
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ConvertedJew Member
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No I am female and I am marrying a muslim man. My temple has not had problems with that at all. We are having two separate ceremonies, one jewish one muslim. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Converted Jew: I take it that since you are a PhD, you must have read the Sura I posted above...right? Your thoughts on tha possibility that your future husband can beat the crap out of you and still be considered an upstanding Muslim. Thanks. Also, what of the sayings attributed to Muhammed in the Ha'dit regarding this same subject? Thanks again. |
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brontosaurus Member
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rachamim18 wrote: Brontosauras: "Most Jews and Christians in America hold each other in high regard and voew each other as positive influences on America." Partly correct. Both fot hem are doing so for almost entirely selfish reasons. Christians, evangelicals anyway, see the Jews reestablishment of Israel as a neccessary part of the Second Coming of Christ. In other words, they still se Jews as theologically inferior but intrinsically connected to their own religious hopes. The Jews on the other hand see the evangelical's support of Israel as a good thing because of its obvious effect on US/Israeli relations. This is not true. First of all, to see another people as part of a fulfillment of your own scriptures is not a selfish thing. Secondly, there is a deep, loving respect between most conservative christians and most orthodox jews because they see eachother both as an expression of the same values. Jews believe Jesus was just a man and Christians believe he was the Messiah and divine, but other than that, all the values are the same: That one God created, sustains, and loves all people, that he urges us to follow the path of truth in humbly following His ways, of loving those around you, and of being strong and courageous to stand up for truth. The entire Christian Bible (even New Testament) was written by Jews. Most Jews today believe Christians are a little misguided about Jesus, but even Jesus taught things that were very in line with Jewish values. That is the real essence of why America and Israel are so supportive of each other. America is the most Christian nation on earth, and Israel is the most Jewish nation on earth. |
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brontosaurus Member
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Florida wrote: Just one more...this one will (should?) make you think about just how much all people have in common and just what we focus upon instead! This quote is about as accurate and about as helpful as an antisemetic joke about how all Jews are money-hungry, selfish and evil. The little "story" above would never happen in real life, nor is it funny at all. Whoever Emo Phillips is, I have unfortunately gained a first impression of him that he is a foolish at best and dangerous at worst character. |
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brontosaurus Member
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Florida wrote: Just one more...this one will (should?) make you think about just how much all people have in common and just what we focus upon instead! This quote is about as accurate and about as helpful as an antisemetic joke about how all Jews are money-hungry, selfish and evil. The little "story" above would never happen in real life, nor is it funny at all. Whoever Emo Phillips is, I have unfortunately gained a first impression of him that he is a foolish at best and dangerous at worst character. |
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brontosaurus Member
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rachamim18 wrote: ConvertedJew: You are entirely wrong. The Qu'ran and the Old Testament are very, very different. the Qu'ran took great liberties in paraphrasing the Old Testament. So much so in fact that there are huge incosistincies. While the king Jame's Bible is a huge mistranslation of both Old AND New Testaments, it is still a telling of the same essential tale. The same CANNOT be said fo the Qu'ran. Thank you! Finally, another Jewish person who articulates what I've been trying to say... |
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brontosaurus Member
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Mr Pineapple wrote: Pity the poor muslims who have a more tolerant and loving faith in Islam and have to suffer these fools. Yes, but unfortunately, the "more tolerant and loving" Muslims are doing nothing to stand up to the "intolerant, jihadist fools" in their own back yards. The very worst part of it is that the peaceful Muslims that do exist may condemn the terrorism, but in very small amounts and hardly noticeable. More often, they complain about how the terrorists are not treated right when they are captured. You won't find Christians justifying terrorism. When a guy walked into an abortion clinic and started shooting people, every major Christian leader condemned the guy, and some even said he should be executed. No Christian would try to justify his actions or be in any way sympathetic to him. You won't find Jews justifying terrorism. When a young Jewish man frustrated at the forced gaza moves went out and shot 4 random arabs, the entire Jewish community, even the people being forced from their homes, condemned his actions. |
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brontosaurus Member
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rachamim18 wrote: Now I AM really confused! No, I got it, I think: both florida and convertedJew are female Jews who are engaged to Muslim men (or at least Egyptian in florida's case). Florida is Jewish by blood and ConvertedJew is obviously a converted Jew (from Christianity, which she still holds in high regard - at least Jesus' teachings). Both women have seen their fiancees suffer persecution because of their Muslim or Arab background. By the way, I am sorry to hear of all of these stories of mistreatment. As rachamim said, there is no excuse for mistreating any person because of the actions of others in a similar "group." Their experiences with seeing their loved ones hurt this way helps me understand why they are wary of seeing negative things spoken about Islam. This doesn't change the fact that I agree completely with rachamim and Sophion about how dangerous the Muslim religion at its root truly is. But it is still no justification for hurting someone who has done nothing to hurt you. I have met Wiccans and Satanists who were decent people - that doesn't mean I consider Satanism a healthy religion that should be welcomed. |
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ConvertedJew Member
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brontosaurus wrote: rachamim18 wrote:Now I AM really confused! Ok for one, my fiance is not Arab. His family is from Jordan. Just being from the region does not constitute being of Arab ethnicity. Two, aside from what Rachamim has said, my fiance is very American, an upstanding man in the political realm of America, and very conservative in nature, and would never hit me, no matter if it was acceptable or not under his faith. For one to accuse my fiance of this without even knowing him is rude, immature, and above all just plain wrong. Now as for brontosaurus, I have never said I agree with the Islamic Faith. I do believe it has many inaccuracies and things inwhich I consider amoral woven into the fabric of faith. And in no way do you have the right to assume and broadcast what you believe my feelings are and the reasons I feel them, because you are very wrong. I have never once said that people should not speak negatively about Islam because of my fiance's faith and the persecution that has happened to us. Infact, the persecution that has happened to us, has been by people who are against a Muslim man marrying a Jewish woman, not just because of our faith. We have been persecuted by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike. Islam in general is not a religion of fear and terror. It has been made such by radicals, no different than the Nazi's who claimed to be Christians, or the KKK who claimed to be christians, or the Sadducees who claimed to be speaking for all of the Jews when Christ was killed. These are all radicals who have perverted the message of all of their religions tarnishing them throughout history for their works. For us to judge an entire group based on the outlying factors, separate from the majority is unfair. Islam translated from Arabic means peace. My main message is to teach finding our middle ground together and working from there to restore a level of peace and tolerance. We keep hounding on Islam for its holy wars, but we always seem to forget the same terrorism that Christianity once plagued the world with! The Inquisition, The Crusaides, The current war in Iraq, The 100 Years War, and many other horrible things that Christianity has done to inflict Terror in the name of GOD! This is what is most upsetting to me is how everyone speaks so negatively about a religion when in years past, their own has done equally horrible things in the world. I am not here to profess Islam is not to blame for anything, but I am here to say we all need to take ownership of each of our faith's blame in the state of the world today. Everyone is at fault for senseless fighting due to the constant negativity and pessemistic focus on the things that divide us instead of the optimistic look at things that unite us as a people. |
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Florida Member
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ConvertedJew wrote:rachamim18wrote:Now I AM really confused! Last edited on Sun Sep 4th, 2005 08:01 pm by Florida |
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brontosaurus Member
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ConvertedJew wrote: brontosaurus wrote: rachamim18 wrote:Now I AM really confused!
I never said your fiance was arab, never accused him of being anti-American, nor was I the one to say he might hit you - that was another poster, and I agree that it is rude to suggest such things without even knowing him. All I said was he is Muslim and he has been targeted for mistreatment. And in no way do you have the right to assume and broadcast what you believe my feelings are and the reasons I feel them, because you are very wrong. sorry for trying to be understanding... I have never once said that people should not speak negatively about Islam because of my fiance's faith and the persecution that has happened to us. Infact, the persecution that has happened to us, has been by people who are against a Muslim man marrying a Jewish woman, not just because of our faith. We have been persecuted by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike. Islam in general is not a religion of fear and terror. It has been made such by radicals, no different than the Nazi's who claimed to be Christians, or the KKK who claimed to be christians, or the Sadducees who claimed to be speaking for all of the Jews when Christ was killed. These are all radicals who have perverted the message of all of their religions tarnishing them throughout history for their works. For us to judge an entire group based on the outlying factors, separate from the majority is unfair. I agree that it is wrong to judge an entire group by a few fringe nut cases. For Islam, I am judging by it's founder - who WAS a blood-thirsty, slaughtering "Prophet of the sword" who took on over a dozen wives - many of whom were taken from the men he killed of other religions and regions. Islam translated from Arabic means peace. Most Muslims will tell you that Islam means "submission." My main message is to teach finding our middle ground together and working from there to restore a level of peace and tolerance. We keep hounding on Islam for its holy wars, but we always seem to forget the same terrorism that Christianity once plagued the world with! The Inquisition, The Crusaides, The current war in Iraq, The 100 Years War, and many other horrible things that Christianity has done to inflict Terror in the name of GOD! This is what is most upsetting to me is how everyone speaks so negatively about a religion when in years past, their own has done equally horrible things in the world. I am not here to profess Islam is not to blame for anything, but I am here to say we all need to take ownership of each of our faith's blame in the state of the world today. Everyone is at fault for senseless fighting due to the constant negativity and pessemistic focus on the things that divide us instead of the optimistic look at things that unite us as a people.It is important to condemn anyone's actions that are evil. Christians today condemn the crusades and the inquisition. The problem is that most Muslims don't want to condemn any action. Or when they do, they say that is only a few terrorists. Well, I have news for you, maybe here in America there are peaceful Muslims who condemn every act of terrorism, but in the Middle East, most common people cheer them on. Most young men in places like Syria, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are fascinated with Osama Bin Laden and consider him a hero. I'd love to see peace too, but the evil is so thick upon most of the Muslim world right now and everyone here is too afraid to be called a racist to call it like it is. |
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Florida Member
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brontosaurus wIt is important to condemn anyone's actions that are evil. Christians today condemn the crusades and the inquisition. The problem is that most Muslims don't want to condemn any action. Or when they do, they say that is only a few terrorists. Well, I have news for you, maybe here in America there are peaceful Muslims who condemn every act of terrorism, but in the Middle East, most common people cheer them on. Most young men in places like Syria, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are fascinated with Osama Bin Laden and consider him a hero. I'd love to see peace too, but the evil is so thick upon most of the Muslim world right now and everyone here is too afraid to be called a racist to call it like it is[ And do you for a moment REALLY believe that there were public cries of outrage during or even soon after any of the atrosities committed by Christians in the name of their religion? Of course not! The Crusaders were treated as hereos. purifiers of the faith, armies of G-d! One of the area Catholic high schools NOW calls their football team "The Crusaders!" Hardly a wholesale repudiation of mass murder to enshrine the actors as a role model for a high school! Sounds like they're still considered heros! |
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brontosaurus Member
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Florida wrote: brontosaurus wIt is important to condemn anyone's actions that are evil. Christians today condemn the crusades and the inquisition. The problem is that most Muslims don't want to condemn any action. Or when they do, they say that is only a few terrorists. Well, I have news for you, maybe here in America there are peaceful Muslims who condemn every act of terrorism, but in the Middle East, most common people cheer them on. Most young men in places like Syria, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are fascinated with Osama Bin Laden and consider him a hero. I'd love to see peace too, but the evil is so thick upon most of the Muslim world right now and everyone here is too afraid to be called a racist to call it like it is[And do you for a moment REALLY believe that there were public cries of outrage during or even soon after any of the atrosities committed by Christians in the name of their religion? Of course not! The Crusaders were treated as hereos. purifiers of the faith, armies of G-d! One of the area Catholic high schools NOW calls their football team "The Crusaders!" Hardly a wholesale repudiation of mass murder to enshrine the actors as a role model for a high school! Sounds like they're still considered heros! Your point about Christians not condemning the crusades in the same decade they were occurring is true. However, today, I still don't think you grasp the level of hatred of Muslims. I don't hate anyone, and I don't encourage hate, and I don't encourage false information. But when it is obvious that there is a problem, I don't believe it's being hateful to point out the problem. As we speak, there are Muslim tribes that will slaughter other Muslim tribes just to get the bounty and the women. But very often they will simply rape the women before slitting their throats. These are Sunni Muslims slaughtering Sunni Muslims! Why do you think the Arab nations were the poorest in the world for decades until they got oil? Because while the rest of the world was slowly lumbering along, making progress, making mistakes, but slowly coming out ahead - the Muslim world was focused on nothing but tribal warfare. Indian tribes were also slowed down in their progress by tribal warfare, as were African tribes - but nothing compares to the violence in the Arab/Muslim tribes. The constant slaughtering back and forth never ended. And the only reason it has slowed now is because now they have gained enough money from oil to be able to turn their sites on their non-Muslim neighbors in practically every area of the world. Muslims keep starting fights with Hindus in India, with Jews in Israel (they tried 3 times to totally obliterate the Jewish State), with terrorism in every part of the Western world, etc. There is something inherently wrong with the Muslim religion that goes deeper than just some mistakes by a few nutcases. With the crusades, most of the crusaders were illiterate and lacked even the most fundamental knowledge of what their religion really teaches - granted this wasn't always the case - their religious leaders obviously knew how to read. But with Islam, THE VERY FOUNDER was a blood-thirsty conquering slaughterhouse of a leader - as well as a wife collector from all his victims. Some of his wives were under 14, and one of his wives stolen from a Jewish village eventually ended his life by attempting to poison him - which didn't kill him outright but weakened him until he finally died some time later. Both Jews and Christians believe that their final destiny is when God sends a Messiah who will bring peace on earth and this will be done by God - not man. Muslims believe that their destiny is to forcefully take over the world. It's the same as every villain in every movie or cartoon "We are going to take over the world!!! Mwooo ha ha ha ha!!!" - except this time it's real! It's the exact same vision that Hitler had. I'm not saying that all Muslims feel this way - but I would bet at least half do - probably more. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Bronotsauras: Sorry, most "orthadox Jews" could not care less about any non-Jew, per se. As for "deep love," were you to go to any yeshiva and say that you would be houned out of the building. It is sad but most Jews think that non-Jews [pick yoiur paticular group] are fine as long as they never come near them. this is almosty a universal dfeeling. If you doubt it, look at the Public Television show "Front Line." they aired a documentary week before latst [should still be online at their site] about a religious Jew who hoped to combat just those feelings. We are forbidden by our religion from mixing with any non-Jew...even from sitting to eat with them, etc. "Deep love" is far, far from that. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Brontosauras: As for Jewish and Christian vvalues being the same...wrong again. Look, almost all Christian creeds believe that there is a heaven and a hell. Jews do not. Almost all Christians belive that you need to accept Jesus as your personal saviopr in order to reach Paradise, Jews do no. Almost all Christians believe that there is only amodicum of freewill, if that. Jews belive the exact opposite. I can go on but I think it is clear enough. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Brontosauras [yet again]: Let me make it quite clear, the Christian belief that Jesus is not only the Messiah but G-D's physical son is heresy of the utmost seriousness to any Jewish creed. We believew in strict monotheism. Even the Christian belief of worshipping the cross, etc is extre e heresy punishable by death to us so please research your feelings a little more. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Converted Jew: Beore calling me names for suggesting that you rerad the excerpted Sura...simply either watch the movie "Not Wi9thout My Daughter," or read the book that inspired it. A completely true account of an Iranian physician who had lived long here and developed so called conservative and mainstream values, married an American woman and had a daughter. After the Shah's downfall he convinced his family to accompany him back to Iran "just for a visit." I would love to tell you the rest but would then be spoiling the tale. I suggest you read it. while there are no uniform rules, culutral and religious ties run very deep [this of course comong from a sswcular man raised in the Chassidic life]. you have no idea what you are getting into, depite your obvious intelligence. |
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rachamim18 Member
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Converted Jew: One more thing, Jordan has an incredible cultural problem with honor killings. I suggest that you research the subject should you ever consider visiting Jordan. As his wife you will be literally considered clan property. Please think aside from your feelings [this is the problem with Westerners]. |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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c'mon this is so paranoid. I cannot believe i just finished reading you bagging someone out for generalising about the jews. How is what you have posted here any different? Because it is not strictly racial? Because in this case it is right? I am not ignoring the facts but your statements above are truly narrowminded. 'Watch out for your fiance in Jordan because there is a huge honor killing problem there, and after all he is a Jordanian muslim' - That is basically what you said. There is no way that this is not bigoted. You just think that your own bigotry is justified. |
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Emaus_40 Member 
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ConvertedJew wrote: We keep hounding on Islam for its holy wars, but we always seem to forget the same terrorism that Christianity once plagued the world with! The Inquisition, The Crusaides, The current war in Iraq, The 100 Years War, and many other horrible things that Christianity has done to inflict Terror in the name of GOD! Hey, whoah, hold on there a second, sister. The current war in Iraq? I was not aware this was a new Christian crusade. If it is, it is a terrible one given that a secular dictator was overthrown in favor of what seems to be shaping up to be a new Islamic Republic. I wouldn't lump the Iraq war with Christianity any more than I would Vietnam, though both seem to have some unfortunate similarities. You claim a certain detached view of history, yet by claiming that the war in Iraq is an example of "Christian" terrorism you are clearly showing the influence the Islamic world has had on you. You are entitled to your opinion as we all are in the wonderful country, but plese demonstrate if you will how exactly Iraq is a Christian crusade, because as Christian I didn't get the memo. |
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Guest
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There are fundamental similarities and differences in these three groups of faith. While they all have the same roots, they are extremely different from each other and should never be categorized as the same. There have been many excellent answers, and I have been reading through them once again. There is not a lot to add, but I wanted to weigh in with just a couple of comments. The faith of Abraham begins the tribes of Judaism. The Jews' nation, culture and faith were all rooted in this one man. He is the father of them all. At the same time, he is also claimed (and truly is) the father of Islamic peoples as well. I am not going to discuss all the beliefs of the Jews which have been so eloquently posted by many others already. I am more concerned with the differences between Islam and Christianity as those are both offshoots of Judaism. Christianity is the first outgrowth of Judaism. The first Christians were Jews who accepted Jesus Christ as the long awaited Messiah. The first Christians did not discard their Jewish traditions and laws. They merely incorporated Christ's teaching and the belief of forgiveness through Jesus Christ's sacrifice into the long existing rules, guidelines and laws. They did not necessarily quit going to the synagogue. They did not start "breaking the Sabbath." They did not start having ham on "Easter." Through the growth of Christianity there were apostles and disciples who either had direct contact with Jesus during the ministry of Christ on earth, or as in Paul's case, had a vision. In every case of these apostles' and disciples' teachings in the New Testament, there is ample cross referencing and sources to clarify and teach concepts. For example, the Jews who had become Christians were reluctant to let gentiles (non-Jews) become Christians also. When they were finally convinced to let the gentiles convert to Christianity, they wanted to insist that those who had converted must be circumcised. (ouch). There was a huge discussion and argument among the apostles and disciples over this and a lasting conflict resulted. The upshot was that we are not "saved" through any action we do, but by grace. The others said that circumcision was an act of obedience. The argument around and around. It is much similar to the concept of baptism among many believers. Some see it as an act of obedience - necessary for "salvation" and others see it as a "nice" thing - a ceremony. Another example is the keeping of certain days as being holier than others (Sabbath or festival days from the Old Testament). The cultural changes for those who were converting to Christianity from Judaism were not as significant as those who were gentiles - having no history of holy days or festivals. In Romans 14 we are told that each person should be fully convinced in their heart as to why they believe one way or the other. If a man (or woman) thinks something is wrong - don't do it. If one person wants to celebrate a holy day - do it unto God and be fully committed. If one wants to avoid eating meat - then avoid eating meat to the glory of God. If someone thinks it's okay to eat meat - do it giving hanks unto God. The chapter starts off saying: How can one man judge another man's servant? That servant will be judged by the master only. (for give paraphrase) As time went on, there was synchronization of Christianity in accordance with the culture involved. Examples of those are the "holy days" of Christmas, Halloween, Easter, and many others. There are saints who were included, visions embraced (Virgin of Guadalupe is an example) and practices added to the church's habits. Some of these were added to make it more acceptable for the "masses" of people to embrace the new faith. I am not saying it was good or bad. It's just a fact. Islam is brought to us courtesy of another vision from Mohammad (you all know this) who lived quite a long time after Christ's ministry. While Islam celebrates Jesus as a prophet, it firmly rejects that Christ is anything other than a good guy messenger from God. The fundamentals of Islam have already been discussed quite well. I have no arguments with them as they have been portrayed. In fact: good job! What I DO have a problem with is the continual portrayal of Christian and Islamic similarities in the area of judgment/jihad. Christianity does NOT teach that we are to judge others. It does not encourage punishing others for their sins. It does not celebrate the conquest of infidels. The crusades and inquisition are examples of despots who abused the church for their own gain (in most examples). Islam DOES promote the conquest of those who do not believe - most often the infidels. Therefore, it is seen as a virtue (by MANY) to kill or otherwise stop those infidels from further action or influence. An example of this can be seen any day of the week in reading Islamic news sources. When Katrina struck, there were many Muslims who claimed that Katrina was a soldier of Jihad, and these people celebrated the death and destruction of others. Now, I know that there are other Muslims who do not feel this way. I am not saying all do. But it is a given fact that it is part of the Islam teaching that if someone is breaking Islamic laws that they should be punished. I have more to say - but I will leave it at that for now.... |
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brontosaurus Member
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rachamim18 wrote: Bronotsauras: Sorry, most "orthadox Jews" could not care less about any non-Jew, per se. As for "deep love," were you to go to any yeshiva and say that you would be houned out of the building. It is sad but most Jews think that non-Jews [pick yoiur paticular group] are fine as long as they never come near them. this is almosty a universal dfeeling. If you doubt it, look at the Public Television show "Front Line." they aired a documentary week before latst [should still be online at their site] about a religious Jew who hoped to combat just those feelings. We are forbidden by our religion from mixing with any non-Jew...even from sitting to eat with them, etc. "Deep love" is far, far from that. As a Jew, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Yes, I have noticed the bigatry that comes from many religious, often orthodox, sometimes very orthodox like hassidic groups. I find this to be stupid on the part of the Jews, but I understand it, being that the same blood lies in me, and I understand the history that would make a Jew act this way. But it is not biblical. Let me say it again - it is not Biblical. YES - it is Biblical for a Jew to not marry a non-Jew or to not follow after Gentile customs. But to not associate with Gentiles is wrong. King David, who is called "a man after God's own heart" had a loving friendship with Hiram the King of Tyre. He also had good relationships with other neighboring countries. Many times the Israelites had to rely on another nation for assistance or had to take other people groups under their wings to live in their lands and were commanded by God not to mistreat or act unwelcoming to aliens "For you were once aliens yourselves." |
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brontosaurus Member
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rachamim18 wrote: Brontosauras: As for Jewish and Christian vvalues being the same...wrong again. Look, almost all Christian creeds believe that there is a heaven and a hell. Jews do not. Almost all Christians belive that you need to accept Jesus as your personal saviopr in order to reach Paradise, Jews do no. Almost all Christians believe that there is only amodicum of freewill, if that. Jews belive the exact opposite. I can go on but I think it is clear enough. By "values" I was referring to things like the ten commandments, but more especially to things like "love your neighbor as yourself" which is stated exactly word for word in both the Torah and the New Testament. By values, I mean ethics - rules for treating yourself and those around you, and rules of self discipline. What you are referring to, I would call "doctrines" and put in a separate category. Doctrines referring to who was great and who wasn't and why and what will happen in the future, and how does one obtain salvation. Obviously, you don't need to tell me the things above about Jews and Christians - I think even a casual observer can see these obvious things. |
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brontosaurus Member
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rachamim18 wrote: Brontosauras [yet again]: Let me make it quite clear, the Christian belief that Jesus is not only the Messiah but G-D's physical son is heresy of the utmost seriousness to any Jewish creed. We believew in strict monotheism. Even the Christian belief of worshipping the cross, etc is extre e heresy punishable by death to us so please research your feelings a little more. Obviously it was considered heresy for Jesus to call himself "God's Son". Why do you think many of the crowds and the religious leaders called for his death? Christians believe that their doctrine does not violate the principle of "one God" in that their concept of a "triune nature of God" still leaves God as one, but of having different forms or parts. Obviously, this is debatable, but that is the Christian position. But the idea of Jesus being the Messiah in and of itself is not heresy - he either was or wasn't. Many people before and after him claimed to be the Messiah, and some are still considered people who meant well. Rabbi Akiva proclaimed "Bar Kockba" the Messiah and yet even he obviously wasn't, Rabbi Akiva's wisdom is still held in high regard. In addition, many many Jews believe Jesus was a great Jewish moral teacher and blame his followers more (especially Paul) for stretching and adding to his message things he never intended. Christians do not worship crosses as far as I know - it is simply a symbol of their faith, just as a Star of David is. |
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brontosaurus Member
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Mr Pineapple wrote: c'mon this is so paranoid. I cannot believe i just finished reading you bagging someone out for generalising about the jews. How is what you have posted here any different? Because it is not strictly racial? Because in this case it is right? I am not ignoring the facts but your statements above are truly narrowminded. Pineapple, she was not being bigotted at all. She is warning convertedjew that Jordan is a dangerous place to visit. It's the same as warning a young woman not to go alone into a bad neighborhood at night. You don't know Jordan or what some 3rd world countries can be like if you don't know their customs and come in without understanding them. A close friend of my grandmother's is not even Jewish, but he was travelling around the Middle East and when he visited Jordan he made the mistake of speaking some Hebrew phrases. Immediately, his tour guide turned him over to a police officer who demanded to know where he learned those phrases and why he would use them. He was interrogated for 15 minutes, and sensing the possible danger he was in, he played like he was a dumb tourist and pretended he had no Jewish connections and they finally let him go with a warning not to listen to Jews or their ideas or visit Israel. |
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Mr Pineapple Member
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I get that. I saw the comments regarding honour killings as refering to the fiance doing the killing, not simply saying that Jordan is dangerous (maybe read it a bit too far). Personally if that was my fiance i would be offended. The point of tolerance isn't that you put your head in the sand, but to generalise about your fiance based on religion, c'mon. In any case there were several similar statements in the posts that said much the same thing... basically "watch out, you can't trust those muslims!" I have noticed time and time again that jews and christians are happy to make sweeping negative comments about muslims that they would never accept if directed at a Jew. Imagine if i made a comment regarding jews generalising about their behaviour. Would it matter if the comment was based on a kernel of truth generalised to fit a people? This is just the most recent example of Rach and I having a difference of opinion on this and as time goes on i find myself concluding there is really no difference between the two ideas. Rach speaks more reasonably than an anti-semite would, but in the end what really is the difference. |
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brontosaurus Member
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Mr Pineapple wrote: I get that. I saw the comments regarding honour killings as refering to the fiance doing the killing, not simply saying that Jordan is dangerous (maybe read it a bit too far). Personally if that was my fiance i would be offended. The point of tolerance isn't that you put your head in the sand, but to generalise about your fiance based on religion, c'mon. In any case there were several similar statements in the posts that said much the same thing... basically "watch out, you can't trust those muslims!" I have noticed time and time again that jews and christians are happy to make sweeping negative comments about muslims that they would never accept if directed at a Jew. You are right that someone made some comments a while back about "watch out - your husband might start beating you 'cause Muslims often do that." I too, found that to be a very rude thing to say to someone about their fiance. But in the above case, I'm positive that Rach was warning that visiting Jordan could be dangerous because hateful people could overpower her husband and forcibly kidnap her and make her "their property." Unfortunately, there are dangerous places in the world wher things like this happen, and it's very scary. I talked to one girl who foolishly tried to go to a bad part of the Sudan to be a missionary and after seeing her tour guides get machine gunned to death in front of her and her friends, they were chased through miles of wilderness by the same militants until they finally got back to the safe area and made it home severly underweight and dehydrated, but alive. |
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ConvertedJew Member
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Well, everyone, about 7 months ago I took a one month trip with my fiancee to visit his parents in Jordan. i didn't have any problems there and was able to profess my faith just fine. No one tried to make me their property, hurt me, beat me, etc. It was a wonderful trip that included a week in Jerusalem for me to visit my holy land. Courtesy of my fiance. Again, no problems with people trying to kidnap me or hurt me. My fiance would never hurt me or anyone else. Ever. To suggest that he would is obsurd, hateful, hurtful, rude, and above all an immature comment showing people's true lack of knowledge in faiths. |
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ConvertedJew Member
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I will comment on how the war in Iraq is shapping up to be a christian crusaide of personal vendetta later, for now I must go to work... |
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brontosaurus Member
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ConvertedJew wrote: I will comment on how the war in Iraq is shapping up to be a christian crusaide of personal vendetta later, for now I must go to work... Please spare us. I'm not saying you don't probably have a lot of interesting things to say, but save it for another thread. There are probably like 27 threads about the Iraq war already, and if you don't like any of those you can start your own. This thread has enough in it already, just dealing with religious texts and similarities/differences between religions... |
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ConvertedJew Member
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brontosaurus wrote: ConvertedJew wrote:I will comment on how the war in Iraq is shapping up to be a christian crusaide of personal vendetta later, for now I must go to work... My comments on the war can be found in the thread " What is the difference between christians catholics and protestants" It relates to the biblical babylon and the mesoptomian babylon in modern Iraq, and their relation to the end of times. |
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msabri1 Member
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http://www.religioustolerance.org/comp_isl_chr.htm i hope this site will help |
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PatriotsVoice Member 
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The Worlds Three Great Religions, The Story Behind The Story... 1. These religions are what they are, and our discussing them isn't going to change that. 2. All of them share more in common than their differences. 3. But those things they have in common include the good, the bad, and the ugly. 4. The fact is these three and all the other religions are at one and the same time, warlike and peaceful, tolerant and intolerant, loving and hateful, forgivig and vengeful, kindly and cruel, good and evil, and so on. 5. We pretend we are horrified by the toughness, and just love the softness, but the reality is these can never be separated. 6. Thus most live in a mentally confused state in which we know the truth, but are in denial about it. 7. There is a side to all these religions that wants to kill all the others, if they could just get away with it, and everyone knows this, but denies it at the same time. 8. Humans are natural born liars and will lie about the time of day much less religion. 9. These religions wage constant psych warfare on any and all. 10. In these religions are the greatest good and the greatest evil that humans are capable of. 11. Thus their acts are not to be sanitized or covered up, and certainly not subjected to some pollyanna goodie two shoes colorations. 12. They are the depositories and carriers of our best hopes and fears and our worst faults, and as such they are to be protected from each other and allowed to serve us as they were intended. 13. As for what God thinks about all this, stay tuned. |
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PatriotsVoice Member
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RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE, WHAT'S THAT? If I could take all the best parts of every religion, I fancy I would make a near perfect one. By the same token, if I could take the parts of each Christian denomination that were true and good, and abandon those things that were bad, I could make a near perfect Christian denomination. But, something prevents this. It is as though people can only stand so much good, and when their quota is up, it is up, and they must then resort to evil for a while. Obviously, each of these bodies sit up night and day figuring how to blacken the name of all the others. Were they to spend an equal amount of energy perfecting themselves and their organization, they would make much more progress, and the world would be a happier place. So, we must use what we have, not what we don't have, to do as much good as we can. Doing good is hard work, whereas doing evil is a breeze. The Bible says the "Love" of money is the root of all evil," not money mind you, but rather the Love of it. So follow the money and you will come to the source of all evil. And don't just hit on the rich, they are not the worst offenders. The poor are more in love with money than the rich, and are greedier, and more evil generally. So start from there and you might make more progress. It is a cheap and unproductive shot to start blaming the rich for all evil. Give any poor man the money the rich have and they will do far worse with it. Look at how the poor presently spend their money. Talk about wine, women and song. Peope on welfare waste 90 percent of everything they are GIVEN. |
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brontosaurus Member
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PatriotsVoice wrote: RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE, WHAT'S THAT? I have learned a lot from this post. Thank you, Patriot'sVoice for bringing me back to reality, which I have been straying from. It is true that there is no better defense against evil than to attack the evil in yourself and promote the good in yourself, and let the rest of the chips fall as they may - you will have bettered the world by bettering yourself and this is all we can and all we are called to do. I would say you got a little off topic by adding the poor/rich thing. While I mostly agree with you, it kind of takes away from the rest of your post because you are now in a small way doing what you said not to do "pointing out the evil in other people's lives." And it may be true that people who stay poor usually do so because they are more wasteful, but there truly are greedy people in every walk of life - even rich ones sometimes. |
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PatriotsVoice Member
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Bronte: "I would say you got a little off topic by adding the poor/rich thing. While I mostly agree with you, it kind of takes away from the rest of your post because you are now in a small way doing what you said not to do "pointing out the evil in other people's lives." And it may be true that people who stay poor usually do so because they are more wasteful, but there truly are greedy people in every walk of life - even rich ones sometimes." PV: No question but that I see your point, but here is where I most particularly am on this, and why this is "put" in my post some words that might be thought of as not really belonging. I grew up in the church and have been a student of our faith all my life. As a result I have spotted what I think are few special areas where Satan is most strongly attacking the church today. One of them is birth control By Christians, which has led to our literally genociding our own selves, thus making the devil very happy, and the other one is what I believe to be our complete and total misunderstanding, and indeed distortion, of scripture, on the general matter of Charity and the whole, and complete, spectrum of it. Satan seeks to destroy us in these two ways to wit: By destroying our children even before they are concieved, and the clever backing of us into such a corner where we use our slender ressources to aid and abett, and increase, the absolutely worst persons and projects among us. Let me repeat: His first goal is to get us to destroy ourselves by prevailing upon us to destroy our children with birth control of one type or another. His second goal is to convince us to assist, support, encourage and prosper the absolutely worst unsaved individuals among us. No more clever plan could be concocted to finally do us in, enabling him to finally truimph over God by destroying the crown jewel of His creation, that is mankind. The manipulation of our minds to induce us misguide, and misapply our charity is an incredibly powerful and complex strategy, and uses many techniques on many levels. One of these invidious techniques is to simply mistranslate the Bible and/or distort the teaching of God's word. What specifically do I mean by all this? I turn, as I always do, to Scripture itself to shed the light I need to see and teach by. Paul told us to care for the poor widows in the church, he didn't say everyone on earth, by any means, but rather just the poor widows in the local church, and not even all poor widows in the church, but only those poor widows who had shown in their lives highest qualities of service to others and the highest moral and various other standards. Notice all the conditionals in this instruction on charity. This tells us, along with many other echoing passages in the Bible, that charity should never unconditional, it should always conditioned upon a number of things, such as the recipient being saved, for example. I feel it is a sin to give any charity, of any type, for any reason, to any unsaved person. Now this is a very short post, and I am, indeed, writing a whole book on this. But these few words are to give you, and others, some indication, in a larger sense, as to why I said what I did. As I said, I am not going to advance a lengthy argument defending my position, though I am fully able to. This I do know: It is ungody to feed in any way the army of Satan. Say you give a bum on the street a quarter and he turns around and buys a knife that he then uses to kill a Christian. I feel the giver of that quarter, regardless of his motive, is an accessory to murder. It is just that simple. We need to be more careful about our charity than anything else in our lives, exept maybe the making, loving and caring for our children. But I thank you for your comments. |
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Florida Member
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Thought the people on here who have been claiming that Muslims were cheering the hurricane would like to see this...oh, and compare the dollar amount donated to that donated by other religious groups in the US so far... Begin Paste: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Muslim Groups Help Hurricane Victims By JUAN A. LOZANO, Associated Press Writer document.write(getElapsed("20050911T223525Z"));4 hours agoUPDATED 3 HOURS 58 MINUTES AGO HOUSTON - About 2,000 Muslim volunteers helped victims of Hurricane Katrina at the city's downtown convention center Sunday, the fourth anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Muslim leaders from around the country who were in Houston for the volunteer effort said the anniversary was coincidental. But they welcomed the opportunity to highlight their faith's true meaning. "We're not trying to prove anything, other than what our faith requires us to do," said Mahdi Bray, executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based Muslim American Society. "What goes with our faith is to help others, to respond and show compassion when people need it, and I'm glad we can do it." Parvez Ahmed, chairman of the board of the nonprofit Council on American-Islamic Relations, said Muslim leaders viewed Sunday's volunteer opportunity as another chance to show that the Sept. 11 attacks were carried out by Islamic extremists who do not represent the true meaning of their faith. Religious and community groups who volunteered to help at shelters picked through a random drawing what day they would work. Houston's Muslim community got Sunday. "If today not only happens to be a day where we are feeding people and helping people and doing our Islamic duties ... but at the same time it also presents an opportunity to dispel myths about Islam and terrorism, then so be it," Ahmed said. CAIR, along with other Muslim groups such as Islamic Relief and the Muslim American Society, are part of the Muslim Hurricane Relief Task Force, which is raising $10 million for victims of Katrina. Ahmed said the groups so far have raised between $3 million and $4 million. Anwar Ali, a computer consultant from Dallas, began his volunteer shift at 4 a.m. Sunday and was still working by mid-afternoon. He had brought carts filled with food to the cafeteria area and helped elderly people walk from one part of the convention center to another. "You find people of different faiths coming together, working together, feeding the poor. It's amazing. It's a wonderful feeling," said Ali, 38, who already was scheduled to be in Houston this week on a work-related project but came to town late Saturday so he could volunteer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> End Paste |
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Guest
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Florida: I don't think any intelligent and informed person will argue with you. It is true, though, that there are the more militant members of Islam who have cheered for the demise and destruction of our nation. |
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Florida Member
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But as I posted before, there are also those militant (and IMHO opinion, disturbed) Christians who have cheered for the deaths caused by AIDS. Same sick view of suffering, but somehow the Muslims are vilified as an entire group, while the Christians are excused, and the entire religion is NEVER indicted. On the other hand, when a group of Muslims do something good, they are labled the exceptions, while a group of Christians performing the same service are lauded as typical of Christian goodness! I still believe that it is because most (but not all) Muslims look "different" to most Americans...there are physical characteristics and accents...it was the same for the Jews when they came from Eastern Europe in the late 1800's-early 1900 and major newspapers maligned their noses and clothing and accents and food in articles and insulting cartoons. Xenophobia...fear of the unknown, fear of the stranger among us. MB, I was talking with a minister tonight at my fiance's restaurant...he claimed that the hurricane was sent by G-d to punish the depraved people of NOLA. Now this is supposed to be a person of G-d, a pastor...and he is claiming that G-d chose to kill all those people, children included. I am still feeling disturbed by that conversation, and the "They got what they deserved" look in his eyes! So sick. So wrong. Yet I would not condem you or any other Christians for his statements, because they did NOT come from you. All I wish for (fervently!) is that people would look past their fear of the "different" and see that overwhelmingly MOST people of every religion (which I define to include all those faiths that seek the greater good...basically that just excludes Satanists), are good people, who love their spouses and kids and friends and neighbors and want to do what's right. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Native American practioners, Wiccans, spiritualists, Santaria practioners ...and agnostics and athiests, too (See Ness, you're not forgotten!) I am just feeling sad tonight, because of all the suffering we have seen over the past few days and the cruel comments of a supposed man of G-d... Last edited on Mon Sep 12th, 2005 04:24 am by Florida |
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Guest
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Florida: You and I are more of a single mind than you know. I have a very difficult time when "Christians" make those types of statements. I am ashamed of my faith when it is on the same plate as the mockers and haters of others. There is a wide spectrum in any group - religious or secular. It would behoove all of us to remember this when we hear or read news. |
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Florida Member
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MB wrote:Florida: I don't think any intelligent and informed person will argue with you. It is true, though, that there are the more militant members of Islam who have cheered for the demise and destruction of our nation. Last edited on Mon Sep 12th, 2005 04:39 am by Florida |
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Florida Member
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MB wrote:Florida: You and I are more of a single mind than you know. I have a very difficult time when "Christians" make those types of statements. I am ashamed of my faith when it is on the same plate as the mockers and haters of others. There is a wide spectrum in any group - religious or secular. It would behoove all of us to remember this when we hear or read news. MB: If it's of any small comfort to you, I have heard different, but equally cruel things from the mouths of a few people in my synagogue as well....the few are everywhere, sadly |
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msabri1 Member
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Florida wrote: MB wrote:Florida: I don't think any intelligent and informed person will argue with you. It is true, though, that there are the more militant members of Islam who have cheered for the demise and destruction of our nation. Greeting Florida and all, I want to add something to what Florida said Do you honestly thing that if the us didn't invade iraq or afganistan nor supported israel against palestinians,there will be no muslim terrorists? i am a muslim and i learned in islamic studies (main subject in school) that if a muslim killed a peaceful non-muslim he won't even SMELL heaven.(that is Muhammed "peace be upon him" saying). When muslims were going to war Muhammed said to the army before leaving mecca "don`t kill a women,a child or an old person.don't kill a priest nor unarmed man don't destroy any building or temples dont even cut any tree in your way.these were his own words. My islamic teacher is a bit extremist but when he hears about a new bombing he goes sad and he says:"look at these people what where they thinking" he is an extremist and he hates Osama and he says that he denigrated this religion the same goes in our mosques they disapprove whit the extremists. bottom line is through what i learned there is nothing gives you the right to disturb peaceful nations nor to commit suicide.so why do they do that? personally i think it is about revenge,just like Florida said imagine a father watching his son torn into pieces,imagine awomen holding what remains of hear doughter's body,imagine if you lost 17 member of your family. will life really matters after that? of course not, of course that will turn them into beasts,can you guess how far a father can go to take revenge for his son or doughter? They wouldn't even care if few muslims are killed in there bombings. Can you feel her pain (she is holding the peices of her child) What can you expect from there father (of course another terrorists) WHAT ARE YOU DOING?????? ALL THE BEST <<<edited for vulgar or offensive content>>> Last edited on Mon Sep 12th, 2005 05:12 pm by |
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sophion Member
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ConvertedJew wrote: My fiance would never hurt me or anyone else. Ever. To suggest that he would is obsurd, hateful, hurtful, rude, and above all an immature comment showing people's true lack of knowledge in faiths. How naive. (1) You will never fully know someone until you get to live with him. (2) People change. |
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sophion Member
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msabri1 wrote: personally i think it is about revenge,just like Florida said imagine a father watching his son torn into pieces,imagine awomen holding what remains of hear doughter's body,imagine if you lost 17 member of your family. will life really matters after that? of course not, of course that will turn them into beasts,can you guess how far a father can go to take revenge for his son or doughter? They wouldn't even care if few muslims are killed in there bombings. BALONEY! Whatever did anyone do to Bin Laden's loved ones for him to orchestrate 9/11? Whatever did anyone do to Mohammad Ata's loved ones for him to drive a plane into a building? |
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sophion Member
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Florida wrote: Did you ever try to put yourself in the shoes of a person in Iraq or Afghanistan, and imagine her watching Americans cheering the destruction of their nation? Miss Florida, 9/11 happened BEFORE Iraq and Afghanistan. |
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msabri1 Member
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sophion wrote: msabri1 wrote:Well,here is the issue they are extremists they think that they are the protectors of islam,they consider themselves as the leaders and what they are doing is for the good of islam,but who gave them the authority over the muslim?personally i think it is about revenge,just like Florida said imagine a father watching his son torn into pieces,imagine awomen holding what remains of hear doughter's body,imagine if you lost 17 member of your family. will life really matters after that? of course not, of course that will turn them into beasts,can you guess how far a father can go to take revenge for his son or doughter? They wouldn't even care if few muslims are killed in there bombings. |
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SonOfThunder Member
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sophion wrote:Florida wrote:Did you ever try to put yourself in the shoes of a person in Iraq or Afghanistan, and imagine her watching Americans cheering the destruction of their nation? Also, there weren't any americans cheering the destruction of their nation! |
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PatriotsVoice Member
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Did any of you read my post, or if so, did any of you understand what I was saying? First off, let's get something a bit straight here: Women, IN GENERAL, think differently than men, especially on matter of war and peace. They TEND to indentfy with all of the women everywhere [the Noami and Ruth sysdrome] and this is fine as far as it goes, but there are TWO sexes on this earth for a bunch of very good reasons that are based on the fact that they each think DIFFERENTLY.... Anyone who doesn't understand and accpet this is thinking with, WELL, half a brain.... Men think, almost exclusively, excepting for the most part those trying to please women to get some sex, or trying to be LIKE women (ie Gay) that we need to protect our women and children, and kill those of the other guy. Ring the Fire Alarm, because now this is the signal for a bunch of women, and men who think like women, to start jumping up and down and howling at the top of their lungs, about how horrible what I am saying is. They will yell in shrill voices that what I am saying is not so, or that it isn't so all the time, or that it shouldn't be so, or that not just women think this way but also SOME men, and that in any case it is wrong, and contrary to all the holy books in the world, and on and on, blah, blah, blah.... But, after all the screaming and fainting dies away it will still be the way things are, the way they have always been, and the way they will always be.... Men have been killing men, women and children in war, and women have been whining about it since the beginning of life on earth. And yes, SOME men have also been agreeing with them as well. BUT some women, I might add, understand all this very well, and side with the men in making this kind of war, and when they do, they are also pretty good at it. So get over it folks, whoever you are, and realize that every religion wants to kill all the others and that most men agree with this, and a lot of women don't agree, BUT a lot DO agree with the men. So there you have it. Whine about that... I don't mind an intelligent discussion about all this, but just a non stop whining and hand holding session is not very productive of anything. |
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Florida Member
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sophion wrote:Florida wrote:Did you ever try to put yourself in the shoes of a person in Iraq or Afghanistan, and imagine her watching Americans cheering the destruction of their nation? And this a relevant comment how? I did not say that the invasion caused the attack of Sept. 11th. No where did I even suggest it! I said that before everybody runs around cheering for the US for invading those two countries, they need to stop and remember that we are talking about people and familes just like us. People on this board have complained about some Muslims cheering the hardships our citizens have suffered here in the South. I was merely pointing out that our media is loaded with the same sort of sick hatred, and that it broadcasts pictures and stories about Americans cheering for the death of people at American hand. It's all unforgivable!!! Both sides! The attack of 2001 was caused by only one thing...insanity. We can go round and round about American policies that set up the Taliban and supported Osama for years, but anyone who would do what those men did is just plain crazy. |
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imranchit Member
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Greetings be to Those who are the followers of righteous guidance, I Bid you to hear the divine Call of God, Accept Islam(Submission with Peace) for your Salvation, I am ready to clear Any ones doubts regarding Islam, Allah Taala willing I Will definitely revert all of you to Islam.Anyone may ask me any question regarding Islam and Why It definitely is a better choice for ones way of Life. Ameen. "Invite(all) to the way of Thy LORD with Wisdom and beautiful preaching, |
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sophion Member
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Florida wrote: And this a relevant comment how? I did not say that the invasion caused the attack of Sept. 11th. No where did I even suggest it! I said that before everybody runs around cheering for the US for invading those two countries, they need to stop and remember that we are talking about people and familes just like us. People on this board have complained about some Muslims cheering the hardships our citizens have suffered here in the South. I was merely pointing out that our media is loaded with the same sort of sick hatred, and that it broadcasts pictures and stories about Americans cheering for the death of people at American hand. It's all unforgivable!!! Both sides! Bin Laden was a genius. At the very least what he did was well within reason if you are a dedicated muslim. He was able to make a humiliating blow at America while at the same time waking up the world to the existence of Islam -thus promoting conversions. Afghanistan was a just war. Though it is unfortunate that in whatever war innocent civilians get caught in the crossfire we must still credit America for minimizing civilian casualties. Iraq was a big mistake. But on the positive note is that the tyrant saddam was vanguished and a new realistic chance at a new democracy in the mid east. |
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imranchit Member
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imranchit wrote: Greetings be to Those who are the followers of righteous guidance, I Bid you to hear the divine Call of God, Accept Islam(Submission with Peace) for your Salvation,
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PatriotsVoice Member
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Siphon, You pretty much have it about things. |
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PatriotsVoice Member
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Siphon, You pretty much have it about things. |
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PatriotsVoice Member
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Iamratchit: Please don't behead me... |
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brontosaurus Member
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Florida wrote: But as I posted before, there are also those militant (and IMHO opinion, disturbed) Christians who have cheered for the deaths caused by AIDS. Where? When? In your imagination? Or on some bizarre cult website that you want to lump in with Christianity? I've never in my life heard a Christian cheer for any disease, even if the Christian believed the person brought the disease on themselves. |
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brontosaurus Member
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Florida wrote:
Flying 2 planes into skyscrapers is madness. Going to war against the very people who did this is not madness at all - it's called rounding up world-class criminals so they can't keep hurting innocent people. |
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Guest
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In addition to those comments, (from Bronto), I may be ignorant - however - I have never seen a televised scene of Americans cheering for the destruction of children, mothers and Fathers. I have not seen pictures of them dancing in the streets after a bombing. What I have seen is many people objecting on a regular basis to whatever war or conflict the US is involved with. I have seen people make pledges and journeys to try to right the wrongs they see. So, no. I'm not getting a strong parallel. And, please. I have lived in several different nations - and spent a fair amount of time abroad, so I do have some things to compare with what I see here in the States. |
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PatriotsVoice Member
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I think we should destroy all the terrorists and especially the people who have sympathized with them and given them aid and comfort, which includes terrorist enablers like Jane Fonda. She and Hillary should both the arrested for treason. BUt we cheered and danced in the streets when our bombers were lighting up the night sky over Bagdad killing women and children, and we danced in the streets and cheered when our bombers in one night killed 600,000 German women and children during the fire bombing of Dresden, which had no military value at all. We said they are getting what they deserve. So don't anyone tell me about our ability, and joy, and will to kill unlimited numbers of the women and children of our enemies. I believe we should do this, and more, but I won't lie about it like so many Democrats do. |
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skeptical_R_I Member
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Florida wrote: The attack of 2001 was caused by only one thing...insanity. We can go round and round about American policies that set up the Taliban and supported Osama for years, but anyone who would do what those men did is just plain crazy. Actually on Pat Robertson's "700 Club" TV program, two days after the 9/11 tragedy, guest Jerry Falwell told us who are really responsible for 9/11. On the TV program, Jerry Falwell initially said that the American Civil Liberties Union has "to take a lot of blame for" the tragedy. Pat Robertson agreed. Falwell then continued: "And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the Pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.' " Robertson responded: "Well, I totally concur..." And with the following that Falwell and Robertson have in the born-again community, they surely can't be wrong... |
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Pound Member 
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Cheering the destruction??? Are you out of your f***ing head? I almost threw up when I saw the early video of "Shock & awe". Yeah, the flashing lights and stuff was cool at first, but then the realization hit me that every flash came with an indeterminate body count. TV seperates us from reality, they say. Some reality is to ugly to escape. Unlike the "Dancing in the streets" that we saw from our Palestinian freinds after 9-11, I was feeling anything other than celebratory. That goes for all of my freinds and family as well. |
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Pound Member
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brontosaurus wrote: Florida wrote:Um..... sorry bronto, but good ol' Mr. Randal Terry held a press conference when Freddie Murcury died and made a song and dance out of it. Literally.But as I posted before, there are also those militant (and IMHO opinion, disturbed) Christians who have cheered for the deaths caused by AIDS. Last edited on Tue Sep 13th, 2005 02:31 am by Pound |
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PatriotsVoice Member
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skeptical_R_I wrote: Florida wrote:The attack of 2001 was caused by only one thing...insanity. We can go round and round about American policies that set up the Taliban and supported Osama for years, but anyone who would do what those men did is just plain crazy. No, they can't be wrong, because they are right... |
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brontosaurus Member
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Pound wrote: brontosaurus wrote:Florida wrote:Um..... sorry bronto, but good ol' Mr. Randal Terry held a press conference when Freddie Murcury died and made a song and dance out of it. Literally.But as I posted before, there are also those militant (and IMHO opinion, disturbed) Christians who have cheered for the deaths caused by AIDS. I don't know who either of these two people are. |
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Guest
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Freddy Mercury contracted AIDS back when no one really knew much about it. He himself made a big deal about it - because that was the type of person he was. He went down banging his drum, so to speak. Not saying that people should not have been sympathetic to his death, but he did not want all that stuff. He wanted the spot light on the whole thing. Ever listen to Bohemian Rhapsody? |
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Pound Member
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brontosaurus wrote: Pound wrote: brontosaurus wrote:Florida wrote:Um..... sorry bronto, but good ol' Mr. Randal Terry held a press conference when Freddie Murcury died and made a song and dance out of it. Literally.But as I posted before, there are also those militant (and IMHO opinion, disturbed) Christians who have cheered for the deaths caused by AIDS.
Freddie Murcury-Lead singer for the band Queen, died of AIDS. Randall Terry- Founder of Operation Rescue and an activist for several Christian causes. |
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brontosaurus Member
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Pound wrote: brontosaurus wrote:oh, well, I can't comment as I don't know how valid of a christian leader he is nor do I know what the general christian response to his "song and dance" has been.Pound wrote:brontosaurus wrote:Florida wrote:Um..... sorry bronto, but good ol' Mr. Randal Terry held a press conference when Freddie Murcury died and made a song and dance out of it. Literally.But as I posted before, there are also those militant (and IMHO opinion, disturbed) Christians who have cheered for the deaths caused by AIDS. |
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Pound Member
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This was back in '91. |
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brontosaurus Member
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well, if you can prove to me that he had a strong following in his rejoicing, that's noteworthy. I doubt you'd find television coverage of christians dancing in the streets. |
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Pound Member
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No, no. You misunderstand me entirely. He, Randall Terry, was the only one dancing a jig. He was playing one of those little eukalalie(I have no clue how to spell this) and chanting about being Freddy Mercury, becoming a rock star, living an immoral lifestyle and dying of AIDS. He looked like a total a$$ and I think all who saw it felt that way as well. |
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brontosaurus Member
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lol. Now spell "hyperbole" for me... oops! |
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Pound Member
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Lol. Here is a link with some info on Randall Terry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Terry |
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imranchit Member
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PatriotsVoice wrote: Iamratchit: Please don't behead me... "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not trangress limits, For God loveth not transgressors"(Noble Quran 2:190) "But if the enemy incline towards peace,do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: For He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)"(Noble Quran 8:61) "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand to slay thee:for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds"(Noble Quran 5:28) |
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imranchit Member
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Greetings be to those who are the followers of righteous guidance, How come there is no response to my previous post, Anyway here are more Quranic Quotations, "God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes.God loves just dealers"(Noble Quran, 60:8) "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God.But if they desist then let there be no hostility except against wrong doers" (Noble Quran "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error, Whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And God heareth and Knoweth All things"(Noble Quran 2:256) |
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PatriotsVoice Member
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There are jerks, liars, and evil people in all of these religions. Thus, all these relgions can be used to do all kinds of harm. The real trick here is to get into one of them or some other religion and fight for what is Good, True, and Beautiful. The main goal that should be pursued should be to work INSIDE each of these religions to make it better. Aggression outside is less honorable, and useful. The Moslems in particular have problems INSIDE their religion and should be addressing that, not blowing up buildings, and such, in areas of other religions. The world would have a lot more respect for Bin Laden and other terrorists, if they would limit their attacks to other Moslems they disagree with. In the same way, America would be better served if we worked to improve our own country rather than waste our time and resources fooling around with other Countries. We need to get some decent children born in our own country to our decent couples. That would do more good for the world than all our military interventions put together. Another example is we shouuld be giving the death penalty to drug users right here at home, and leave the coca growers in Columbia and elsewhere alone. If we didn't allow our filthy Democrat degenerates to use this junk we wouldn't have a drug problem. We should never punish a dealer of drugs but rather give the death penalty to the users when we catch them. If we did this we would soon have no drug problem. Put down our druggies instead of wasting our money and resources trying to wipe out opium growing in a dozen countries. It is insane to try to erradicate drug production in the world while encouraging our own losers to suck up their drugs daily. Last edited on Tue Sep 13th, 2005 07:58 pm by PatriotsVoice |
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Bigmo Member
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he Quran(Koran) Concerning other monotheist faiths: Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Book stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin good and forbid wrong; and they hasten in good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are God fearing. 3:113-115 And there are, certainly, among the people of the Book, those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. 3:199 Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 2:62 Say: "O people of the Book : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. 3:64 29.46. And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better, unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong : but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him we bow." And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113 3.84 Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)." 22.78. And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive. He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to God. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help! If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them 4.124 Jesus was a Muslim, Moses was a Muslim, Muhammad was a Muslim, Noah was a Muslim, Abraham was a Muslim, Solomon was a Muslim, Mary was a Muslim, Ishamel was a Muslim, Isaac was a Muslim, David was a Muslim, Jacon was a Muslim, Joseph was a Muslim and so was Job. Whoever believes in God and the last day, is a Muslim. Whoever follows that with rigteous deeds will enter paradise. Islam is peace |
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mb S. Moderator 
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Jesus was a Muslim, Moses was a Muslim, Muhammad was a Muslim, Noah was a Muslim, Abraham was a Muslim, Solomon was a Muslim, Mary was a Muslim, Ishamel was a Muslim, Isaac was a Muslim, David was a Muslim, Jacon was a Muslim, Joseph was a Muslim and so was Job. Whoever believes in God and the last day, is a Muslim. Whoever follows that with rigteous deeds will enter paradise. Er. No. Moses was not a Muslim. Nor was Noah. Heck. Noah wasn't even a Jew. They didn't exist yet. The rest of them - until Mohammad - were JEWS. Last edited on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 10:50 pm by mb |
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Bigmo Member
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Not only Noah, but also Abraham was not an Israelite and so was Job, Lot, Saleh, Shuhaib, and others I can not recall. The ones I believe are Israelites are Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Solomon, David and Jesus. They were never "jewish" as today ones since today ones follow talmud which none of them followed, either Moses or Jesus. Jesus condemned the Talmud and so did the Koran. Moses never compiled the Talmud just like Muhammad never compiled the Hadith. But all believed in one God and all believed in the last day. So they are Muslims. Islam is peace |
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skeptical_R_I_2 Member
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MB wrote: Jesus was a Muslim, Moses was a Muslim, Muhammad was a Muslim, Noah was a Muslim, Abraham was a Muslim, Solomon was a Muslim, Mary was a Muslim, Ishamel was a Muslim, Isaac was a Muslim, David was a Muslim, Jacon was a Muslim, Joseph was a Muslim and so was Job. Whoever believes in God and the last day, is a Muslim. Whoever follows that with rigteous deeds will enter paradise. There is a tendency for people of a later faith to claim members of an earlier faith as their own. Why heck, I even know some Christians who think that one of our guys, Jesus, was a Christian! (smile - good natured laugh) Last edited on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 10:51 pm by mb |
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ashmosh314 Member
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skeptical_R_I_2 wrote: MB wrote:Jesus was a Muslim, Moses was a Muslim, Muhammad was a Muslim, Noah was a Muslim, Abraham was a Muslim, Solomon was a Muslim, Mary was a Muslim, Ishamel was a Muslim, Isaac was a Muslim, David was a Muslim, Jacon was a Muslim, Joseph was a Muslim and so was Job. Whoever believes in God and the last day, is a Muslim. Whoever follows that with rigteous deeds will enter paradise. Lol...  Last edited on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 10:51 pm by mb |
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skeptical_R_I_2 Member
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Bigmo wrote: Jesus condemned the Talmud ... And quite a feat that was... considering that the Talmud wasn't writen for another 400-500 years after his death! Do you ever have a clue what you are talking about? A small amount of research on your part would perhaps keep you from making such silly statements. |
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mb S. Moderator
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Thanks for the above comment. I was just going to shake my head in despair! |
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skeptical_R_I_2 Member
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Bigmo wrote: But all believed in one God and all believed in the last day. So they are Muslims. We have in the Western world (broadly speaking) three different monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Broadly speaking, each religion has a similar, but not identical, concept of God. They all believe in one God, as opposed to multiple gods. But Christianity differs from Judaism and Islam (which have fairly similar concepts of God) in that Christianity believes in a trinity concept of God, in which (in part) God actually became a human being in the body of the man Jesus. So God Himself walked the earth, had a life here, had a birth and death. In Christianity, Jesus is not God in a symbolic, allegorical, or metaphorical sense. He ACTUALLY was/is God! Judaism and Islam totally reject this idea about the nature of God. The three religions differ on other significant concepts also. They differ on who is a prophet and religious authority, for instance. Both Judaism and Christianity totally reject that Muhammad was a prophet of God, and both reject his teachings as authoritative. Hence, both reject the Koran (and its many pseudo-historical claims) as authoritative. The word "Muslim" (Arabic: submission) is only used in the English language for a follower of Islam. To use it for a member of any other religion, even for another monotheistic religion, is to show an ignorance of the English language. Generally speaking, Jews and Muslims do have a very similar concept of God. But I think you might feel it inappropriate if English speaking peoples of the world then decided to say that all Muslims were Jews! The reality is that we need all three words, "Jew", "Christian", and "Muslim" because they actually refer to the followers of different religions, with different origins, with different holy books, with different religious leaders (and founders), and with different religious concepts (including the concepts of God). Muslims play a kind of self-serving game by claiming that other past monotheists are Muslims. But every other monotheist in the world (Jew, Christian, etc.) simply recognize what a childish, silly claim that is. It is without any historical foundation. It is an empty claim. When a Muslim says that, for instance, Jewish and Christian religious "leaders" like Avraham or Jesus were Muslim, then the rest of the world can only pity the ignorance of the followers of Islam. I am not here arguing against Islam. I'm simply saying that the Muslim attempt to claim the religious leaders of other religions is historically false, and religiously self-serving and naive. |
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notself Member
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skeptical_R_I_2 wrote: I am not here arguing against Islam. I'm simply saying that the Muslim attempt to claim the religious leaders of other religions is historically false, and religiously self-serving and naive. Religions with Gods are always appropriating other religions divine beings. The Romans absorbed Greek Gods. Christianity absorbed the mythic traditions of Egypt, Greece and Rome. Hindus claim the Buddha as a God, the avatar of Vishnu. This is despite of the fact that the Buddha absolutely denied he was a God. I don't see anything unusual about Muslims absorbing the Gods and divine beings of other religions. They aren't doing anything that other theistic religions haven't done before them. |
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rise and shine Member
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MB wrote: Jesus was a Muslim, Moses was a Muslim, Muhammad was a Muslim, Noah was a Muslim, Abraham was a Muslim, Solomon was a Muslim, Mary was a Muslim, Ishamel was a Muslim, Isaac was a Muslim, David was a Muslim, Jacon was a Muslim, Joseph was a Muslim and so was Job. Whoever believes in God and the last day, is a Muslim. Whoever follows that with rigteous deeds will enter paradise. a muslim means to surrendor to God's commands ...and all prophets did so they are all muslims |
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Bigmo Member
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skeptical_R_I_2 wrote: Bigmo wrote:Jesus condemned the Talmud ... Mark 7:1-13 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) Public Domain Mark 7 1Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. 3For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Islam is peace Last edited on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 08:14 am by Bigmo |
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skeptical_R_I_2 Member
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Bigmo wrote: skeptical_R_I_2 wrote:Bigmo wrote:Jesus condemned the Talmud ... And what does any of what you wrote have to do with the Talmud? There are two Talmuds, of course. The Jerusalem Talmud was written about 400 CE and the Babylonian Talmud (which is the more scholarly one, and the one that is commonly studied) was written about 500 CE. |
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skeptical_R_I_2 Member
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notself wrote: I don't see anything unusual about Muslims absorbing the Gods and divine beings of other religions. They aren't doing anything that other theistic religions haven't done before them. I didn't say that there was anything UNUSUAL about Muslims absorbing other religion's personnel. We just had a blatant case of it above when Bigmo was claiming Jews and Christians as "Muslims", so I was pointing this out. I in fact said, "There is a tendency for peopl | |||||||||